It seems to me the kid is going to be out around the time he is 30, most likely has many millions stashed away the Feds never discovered, and he will do fine.
If I have learned anything in the last two decades, crime does indeed pay, the risk is absolutely worth the reward, and there is almost no long-term reputational damage from dedicating yourself to this sort of life.
He is going to land on his feet and live a life better than most of us too scared to break the rules.
Although I suspect many people would consider it a great deal, I personally would not be willing to spend the entirety of my 20s in prison in exchange for a good chance at getting away with $10 million after that, and I do not consider this an example of someone winning.
The folks who stole millions online doing crypto shenanigans or whatever and whom you have not heard of, they won. But not this guy.
The reason it gets easier after 30 is largely because of what you learned. It's easier to find a job because you have an employment history, a set of work-related skills, and some connections you can lean on. It's easier to manage money because you know what to not spend it on. It's easier to get into a stable relationship because you learned from the teenage drama. And on, and on.
Getting to the level of a well-adjusted 30-yo is much harder if you're spending that time behind bars.
Yeah to some degree. But your brain isn't really mature until around age 25. But I agree, spending that time in prison would limit your experiences in an unnatural way.
Most criminal hackers would probably be in a rather low-security prison situation however, with some access to books and learning opportunities, maybe even work release etc.
Did you read the full article? Hackers found Noah's previous address and threw bricks through the window. He was lucky -- other harassment attacks of this nature included bullets fired at houses.
Noah's hacker friend was abuducted on a street with a black hood over his face and later beaten and tied on a stake.
Noah might come out ahead financially, sure. But it looks like he might have snitched on people for a lesser sentence, and we all know that snitches get stiches.
What I'm confused about is why Noah just didn't stop while he was ahead. Looks like he was a millionare years ago and had plenty of chances to stop
The following evening, Noah rang from jail. He said he wished he hadn’t hurt his family, or his victims, but he seemed hopeful that the friendships he made would endure.
His family will probably be there for him, but his friends, likely criminal associates, will disband either because he is caught or they are.
Maybe and maybe not. Even gangsters who worked together and were caught will still keep in touch. Though sometimes they legally can't. I know a guy who keeps in touch with whoever is still alive from his crew, though sparingly for reasons.
Except every audit firm that’s ever passed by my company. Like, the reason these requests get honored is because people have been conditioned to think madness is normal.
It’s so weird. I can never bring myself to truly blame the hacker in these instances. If you can call up a random company as an 18 year old, and do anything that costs them $100-200M that’s the fault of the company. If you decided to stick all your saving in crypto instead of a bank account, then I just don’t have any sympathy for you.
That’s not to say that it is good or desireable, but…
As an 18 year old arsonist, you can set a commercial building on fire and cause tens of millions in damages. Is that the fault of the owner?
I don't know why, but we all have a much stronger moral compass when it comes to the real world than to the internet. It's not just cybercrime, the standards of civility are completely different too.
No, it’s like owning a bank and leaving your vault door open, then blaming people that take something out. Yes, it’s still technically illegal, but it’s also an unforgivably stupid thing to do as a bank.
It’s like that commercial building having a few tanks of gasoline standing right next to the valuable merchandise.
Like having a few thousand tons of ammonia nitrate stored in your dockside warehouse next to fireworks, then making surprised potato face when it explodes.
Given how much cryptocurrency is used to perform broad criminal acts (from tax evasion upwards) .. wouldn't anyone in posession of crypto illegally acquired be at high risk of being chased both sides? ie cops and robbers want their vig?
The "crypto queen" who rug-pulled and has $billions, nobody hears from: I find it more likely there's a simple reason why, and it isn't "she spent big to hide herself really, really well"
The forensic accountant I know says "follow the money" works really well for bikie gangs, drug money and international crime links. Sure, there's mixers. But, there's also a chain and pseudonymous ain't invisibility.
She works in Australia. Maybe things are different in other jurisdictions.
There are so many ways to eliminate traceability with cryptocurrency. Just exchange monero and do a thousand transfers with randomized delays, nobody will track that. Swap to zcash piece-by-piece and do similar things if you don't trust monero.
Inferior cryptocurrencies like Bitcoin are non fungible with a transparent blockchain so tracing and tainted coins are a very real and enforced problem.
To solve this use actually useful currency that is private and fungible by design like monero.
Yes but it's not only wallets, that is possible because of transparent blockchain and non fungible by design.
Imagine you could get a dollar bill* which value could evaporate and even put you in criminal trouble because X amount of unrelated money transfers before it got to you it was used in something criminal.
*dollar bills are also not fully fungible because IDs and currency tracking but those aren't implemented everywhere unlike with btc.
Fungibility: gold = monero >>> dollar bill >> bitcoin and most other transparent coins
normally, and it's been a LONG time since I been anywhere near crypto, it's about progeny of the actual "coin" , ie how many private wallets has it touched since being mined. coins freshly "mined" go for more than touched crypto.
> coins freshly "mined" go for more than touched crypto.
I’ve literally never heard of such a thing. I have trouble believing this is actually true, especially given there’s no way to select for it on the exchanges.
This entire thing reminds me of reading Ghost in the wires but like teen version. I don't think this kid truly understood the gravity of his situation, but ten years, damn. Did wreck some lives. Even Mitnick got only 5 and he was 30 when he did those shennanings.
That “I’m glad I lived my life as I lived it” line (or something to that effect) you hear criminals like these say is sickening. They acknowledge what they did was bad and express no remorse for the clear destruction they caused to other people’s lives. It’s cowardly and he should serve much longer in prison.
I think that's the inability to articulate well, as opposed to a celebration of his wrongdoing. He seems to be talking about how he thinks better of himself, that he doesn't think of himself as a bad person, and pairs it with a condemnation of what he did and the group of people that enabled it. Hopefully he serves good time, grows up, and comes out a credit to his family and society.
>>> The following evening, Noah rang from jail. He said he wished he hadn’t hurt his family, or his victims, but he seemed hopeful that the friendships he made would endure. “I’m not saying what I did was a good thing, it’s a horrible community, and what I did was bad,” Noah said. “But I loved my life. I like who I am. I’m glad I was able to live life as I lived it.”
Especially if he went through a period of being suicidal or otherwise deeply struggling with his situation, those words do seem more genuine and forward-looking than saying something like "yeah I'd do more crime if I could".
You have the choice of assuming the worst in everyone, or not.
This kid was not a silver tongued charismatic con man able to dupe and swindle victims, he was taking advantage of ignorance, incompetence, and bad management. his criminal skill consisted of being able to repeatedly and shamelessly call people and repeat a plausible script. High school drama club skills - not "hacked the school server to give everyone 4.1 GPA" skills.
I can grab a clipboard and safety vest and get almost anywhere in the world, even sounding awkward and not particularly smooth, because people expect IT and technician types to show up and be given access to nearly anywhere. "Hi, I'm from IT, I need to get to the phone line/computer in back/ network cable for the display" - people are gullible and ignorant, and the "hackers" that figure out that fact get away with outrageous things based on that alone.
They farmed out these low level social engineering tasks to dozens or even hundreds of participants whose only "skill" was to learn that "one little trick" which broke the security model of all those corporations and departments. That's how law enforcement swept this guy up, because he was not technically proficient or particularly good at what he was doing, from a security standpoint.
10 years of prison is definitely going to mature this person - all I'm saying is that I wish the best for him, because ultimately, that's what best for all of us. I hope he finds a purpose and meaning in life that obliterates the superficial exploitation of people that landed him in prison, and makes the world a better place for his family and community when he gets out. If he can still think of himself as wanting to be a good person, to be better than he was, then I think there's probably hope.
If he was completely unrepentant and unwilling to be accountable, it'd be different - No credit at all to him, I'm just hoping for the best and recognizing that possibility seems to still exist for him.
> You have the choice of assuming the worst in everyone, or not.
I'm not assuming the worst...that would be assuming he intends to find a way to continue managing an online gang from jail...
> the superficial exploitation of people
It wasn't superficial. He had a huge negative impact on a lot of everyday people and profited from it enormously.
> I'm just hoping for the best and recognizing that possibility seems to still exist for him.
I also hope he turns his life around and do believe there is a chance, but statements like the one quoted don't give me much hope. He pays lip service to saying what ge did was wrong and calls the community horrible, but he still wants to be friends with all the people with whom he became friends by engaging in criminal conspiracy with them.
The judge decided to throw the book at him and I think the judge was probably right. Maybe the extra years will give him time to understand the damage he caused.
I think there's a very large segment of criminals that express remorse at sentencing as pure theatre, the courts know but they give brownie points for humbling yourself before the court.
Honestly it's refreshing to hear the truth. I thought something similar at sentencing when Weev told the judge he hoped she'd give him the maximum so people would "storm the docks" and that he not only didn't regret it but wouldn't be so nice next time, which only made it all the more sweeter when the bitch's sentence got totally vacated.
weev over-estimated his popularity. he was a deeply unpleasant person, and he didn't have a movement or any fans of him in a personal way
in addition, his whole shtick was being as annoying and confrontational as possible. "weev belongs in jail but not like that" was the general sentiment i heard
so no, it wasn't "sweet". he could have rotted in jail and nobody would have cared other than the awful precedent that ruling would have set. and that'd be the most fitting end tbqh lol
> he not only didn't regret it but wouldn't be so nice next time
despite all of his hard chatting, he immediately fled the country after he was released. last i heard he's living in some eastern european shithole pretending he's huwhite and running the stormfront servers (im not joking). loser behavior
Not a bitch for not admiring a Nazi, a bitch for sentencing someone to an alleged crime that didn't even happen in her jurisdiction and with no legal conviction. She should have known better, and the appeal was so strong and with so many problems with that case that my most likely conclusion is she was an insane tyrant who's goal is to override the rule of law by virtue of wearing a funny looking robe.
> and express no remorse for the clear destruction they caused to other people’s lives.
They obviously do multiple times in the article, including the same paragraph you referenced in your comment.
"He said he wished he hadn’t hurt his family, or his victims, but he seemed hopeful that the friendships he made would endure. “I’m not saying what I did was a good thing, it’s a horrible community, and what I did was bad,” Noah said. “But I loved my life. I like who I am. I’m glad I was able to live life as I lived it.”"
he's not even pretending he has regrets. All that around is just PR, he's a serial manipulator and there's no reason to believe that he's suddenly changed after such a short period of time.
> He said he wished he hadn’t hurt his family, or his victims
He literally says he has regrets in the first sentence of the paragraph.
> All that around is just PR, he's a serial manipulator and there's no reason to believe that he's suddenly changed after such a short period of time.
Maybe. That's you opinion. I'm not a mind reader, and I don't really care. Plenty of white-collar criminals get much lighter sentences for stealing much more money.
He also says multiple times that "this felt like me" and "I loved living this life" and the FBI agent says, based on their experience, he had no remorse.
It seems to me the kid is going to be out around the time he is 30, most likely has many millions stashed away the Feds never discovered, and he will do fine.
If I have learned anything in the last two decades, crime does indeed pay, the risk is absolutely worth the reward, and there is almost no long-term reputational damage from dedicating yourself to this sort of life.
He is going to land on his feet and live a life better than most of us too scared to break the rules.
Although I suspect many people would consider it a great deal, I personally would not be willing to spend the entirety of my 20s in prison in exchange for a good chance at getting away with $10 million after that, and I do not consider this an example of someone winning.
The folks who stole millions online doing crypto shenanigans or whatever and whom you have not heard of, they won. But not this guy.
I’m not sure I agree. Life is much easier after you turn 30. And easier still after 40. In your 20s most people think of you as a kid.
The reason it gets easier after 30 is largely because of what you learned. It's easier to find a job because you have an employment history, a set of work-related skills, and some connections you can lean on. It's easier to manage money because you know what to not spend it on. It's easier to get into a stable relationship because you learned from the teenage drama. And on, and on.
Getting to the level of a well-adjusted 30-yo is much harder if you're spending that time behind bars.
Yeah to some degree. But your brain isn't really mature until around age 25. But I agree, spending that time in prison would limit your experiences in an unnatural way.
Most criminal hackers would probably be in a rather low-security prison situation however, with some access to books and learning opportunities, maybe even work release etc.
> In your 20s most people think of you as a kid
After prison people think of you as a convict, regardless of age. That doesn't generally make life easier.
If you call cheating, lying and working for criminals a “good life” then yeah, sure.
this heavily assume that prison does not affect you in anyway even after spending decades inside it.
Did you read the full article? Hackers found Noah's previous address and threw bricks through the window. He was lucky -- other harassment attacks of this nature included bullets fired at houses. Noah's hacker friend was abuducted on a street with a black hood over his face and later beaten and tied on a stake.
Noah might come out ahead financially, sure. But it looks like he might have snitched on people for a lesser sentence, and we all know that snitches get stiches.
What I'm confused about is why Noah just didn't stop while he was ahead. Looks like he was a millionare years ago and had plenty of chances to stop
It's really simple. People stop behaviors when they receive negative reinforcement, not when they receive positive reinforcement.
It’s hard to quit when you’re ahead when you think you can keep winning.
[flagged]
This is mostly false.
* Nobody died in the capital bombings.
* Two former Weather Underground members became professors, and they were very controversial at the time
* Mainstream liberals and Democrats rejected the radicals rather than embracing them.
* In Quebec, the violent FLQ didn't come to power. The peaceful PQ did.
* The Québécois democratically chose the official language of their province. The majority are Francophone.
Chatgpt makes it so damn easy to fact check bullshit online. I love it.
> Chatgpt makes it so damn easy to fact check bullshit online
Oh dear.
I certainly hope you aren't daft enough to trust LLM's known for hallucinating^H^H^H^H^H^H bullshitting.
[dead]
The following evening, Noah rang from jail. He said he wished he hadn’t hurt his family, or his victims, but he seemed hopeful that the friendships he made would endure.
His family will probably be there for him, but his friends, likely criminal associates, will disband either because he is caught or they are.
Maybe and maybe not. Even gangsters who worked together and were caught will still keep in touch. Though sometimes they legally can't. I know a guy who keeps in touch with whoever is still alive from his crew, though sparingly for reasons.
"I need the full database for an audit", said nobody legitimate, ever. Great job Twilio manager.
Except every audit firm that’s ever passed by my company. Like, the reason these requests get honored is because people have been conditioned to think madness is normal.
See also, the Department of Government Efficiency.
It’s so weird. I can never bring myself to truly blame the hacker in these instances. If you can call up a random company as an 18 year old, and do anything that costs them $100-200M that’s the fault of the company. If you decided to stick all your saving in crypto instead of a bank account, then I just don’t have any sympathy for you.
That’s not to say that it is good or desireable, but…
As an 18 year old arsonist, you can set a commercial building on fire and cause tens of millions in damages. Is that the fault of the owner?
I don't know why, but we all have a much stronger moral compass when it comes to the real world than to the internet. It's not just cybercrime, the standards of civility are completely different too.
No, it’s like owning a bank and leaving your vault door open, then blaming people that take something out. Yes, it’s still technically illegal, but it’s also an unforgivably stupid thing to do as a bank.
It’s like that commercial building having a few tanks of gasoline standing right next to the valuable merchandise.
Like having a few thousand tons of ammonia nitrate stored in your dockside warehouse next to fireworks, then making surprised potato face when it explodes.
Yeah, blame the victims for not protecting themselves enough. How familiar.
Given how much cryptocurrency is used to perform broad criminal acts (from tax evasion upwards) .. wouldn't anyone in posession of crypto illegally acquired be at high risk of being chased both sides? ie cops and robbers want their vig?
The "crypto queen" who rug-pulled and has $billions, nobody hears from: I find it more likely there's a simple reason why, and it isn't "she spent big to hide herself really, really well"
How would you tell the difference between illegal and legal crypto? Assuming you didn’t already have their names, anyway.
The forensic accountant I know says "follow the money" works really well for bikie gangs, drug money and international crime links. Sure, there's mixers. But, there's also a chain and pseudonymous ain't invisibility.
She works in Australia. Maybe things are different in other jurisdictions.
There are so many ways to eliminate traceability with cryptocurrency. Just exchange monero and do a thousand transfers with randomized delays, nobody will track that. Swap to zcash piece-by-piece and do similar things if you don't trust monero.
Inferior cryptocurrencies like Bitcoin are non fungible with a transparent blockchain so tracing and tainted coins are a very real and enforced problem.
To solve this use actually useful currency that is private and fungible by design like monero.
I think you’re talking about blacklisted/tainted wallets?
Yes but it's not only wallets, that is possible because of transparent blockchain and non fungible by design.
Imagine you could get a dollar bill* which value could evaporate and even put you in criminal trouble because X amount of unrelated money transfers before it got to you it was used in something criminal.
*dollar bills are also not fully fungible because IDs and currency tracking but those aren't implemented everywhere unlike with btc.
Fungibility: gold = monero >>> dollar bill >> bitcoin and most other transparent coins
normally, and it's been a LONG time since I been anywhere near crypto, it's about progeny of the actual "coin" , ie how many private wallets has it touched since being mined. coins freshly "mined" go for more than touched crypto.
> coins freshly "mined" go for more than touched crypto.
I’ve literally never heard of such a thing. I have trouble believing this is actually true, especially given there’s no way to select for it on the exchanges.
Not with any crypto I’ve ever seen or used.
This entire thing reminds me of reading Ghost in the wires but like teen version. I don't think this kid truly understood the gravity of his situation, but ten years, damn. Did wreck some lives. Even Mitnick got only 5 and he was 30 when he did those shennanings.
And Kevin Mitnick had the ability to start a nuclear war from a payphone! LOLOLOL
That “I’m glad I lived my life as I lived it” line (or something to that effect) you hear criminals like these say is sickening. They acknowledge what they did was bad and express no remorse for the clear destruction they caused to other people’s lives. It’s cowardly and he should serve much longer in prison.
I think that's the inability to articulate well, as opposed to a celebration of his wrongdoing. He seems to be talking about how he thinks better of himself, that he doesn't think of himself as a bad person, and pairs it with a condemnation of what he did and the group of people that enabled it. Hopefully he serves good time, grows up, and comes out a credit to his family and society.
>>> The following evening, Noah rang from jail. He said he wished he hadn’t hurt his family, or his victims, but he seemed hopeful that the friendships he made would endure. “I’m not saying what I did was a good thing, it’s a horrible community, and what I did was bad,” Noah said. “But I loved my life. I like who I am. I’m glad I was able to live life as I lived it.”
Especially if he went through a period of being suicidal or otherwise deeply struggling with his situation, those words do seem more genuine and forward-looking than saying something like "yeah I'd do more crime if I could".
That seems like a lot of credit to give someone whose main criminal skill was being articulate and talking people into things.
You have the choice of assuming the worst in everyone, or not.
This kid was not a silver tongued charismatic con man able to dupe and swindle victims, he was taking advantage of ignorance, incompetence, and bad management. his criminal skill consisted of being able to repeatedly and shamelessly call people and repeat a plausible script. High school drama club skills - not "hacked the school server to give everyone 4.1 GPA" skills.
I can grab a clipboard and safety vest and get almost anywhere in the world, even sounding awkward and not particularly smooth, because people expect IT and technician types to show up and be given access to nearly anywhere. "Hi, I'm from IT, I need to get to the phone line/computer in back/ network cable for the display" - people are gullible and ignorant, and the "hackers" that figure out that fact get away with outrageous things based on that alone.
They farmed out these low level social engineering tasks to dozens or even hundreds of participants whose only "skill" was to learn that "one little trick" which broke the security model of all those corporations and departments. That's how law enforcement swept this guy up, because he was not technically proficient or particularly good at what he was doing, from a security standpoint.
10 years of prison is definitely going to mature this person - all I'm saying is that I wish the best for him, because ultimately, that's what best for all of us. I hope he finds a purpose and meaning in life that obliterates the superficial exploitation of people that landed him in prison, and makes the world a better place for his family and community when he gets out. If he can still think of himself as wanting to be a good person, to be better than he was, then I think there's probably hope.
If he was completely unrepentant and unwilling to be accountable, it'd be different - No credit at all to him, I'm just hoping for the best and recognizing that possibility seems to still exist for him.
> You have the choice of assuming the worst in everyone, or not.
I'm not assuming the worst...that would be assuming he intends to find a way to continue managing an online gang from jail...
> the superficial exploitation of people
It wasn't superficial. He had a huge negative impact on a lot of everyday people and profited from it enormously.
> I'm just hoping for the best and recognizing that possibility seems to still exist for him.
I also hope he turns his life around and do believe there is a chance, but statements like the one quoted don't give me much hope. He pays lip service to saying what ge did was wrong and calls the community horrible, but he still wants to be friends with all the people with whom he became friends by engaging in criminal conspiracy with them.
The judge decided to throw the book at him and I think the judge was probably right. Maybe the extra years will give him time to understand the damage he caused.
Do you think he'd have felt remorse if he wasn't caught?
I think there's a very large segment of criminals that express remorse at sentencing as pure theatre, the courts know but they give brownie points for humbling yourself before the court.
Honestly it's refreshing to hear the truth. I thought something similar at sentencing when Weev told the judge he hoped she'd give him the maximum so people would "storm the docks" and that he not only didn't regret it but wouldn't be so nice next time, which only made it all the more sweeter when the bitch's sentence got totally vacated.
well, i disagree
weev over-estimated his popularity. he was a deeply unpleasant person, and he didn't have a movement or any fans of him in a personal way
in addition, his whole shtick was being as annoying and confrontational as possible. "weev belongs in jail but not like that" was the general sentiment i heard
so no, it wasn't "sweet". he could have rotted in jail and nobody would have cared other than the awful precedent that ruling would have set. and that'd be the most fitting end tbqh lol
> he not only didn't regret it but wouldn't be so nice next time
despite all of his hard chatting, he immediately fled the country after he was released. last i heard he's living in some eastern european shithole pretending he's huwhite and running the stormfront servers (im not joking). loser behavior
Well, he is a full on nazi so, no he was not nice.
> which only made it all the more sweeter when the bitch's sentence got totally vacated
Yeah, everyone who does not admire toxic nazi is a bitch.
Not a bitch for not admiring a Nazi, a bitch for sentencing someone to an alleged crime that didn't even happen in her jurisdiction and with no legal conviction. She should have known better, and the appeal was so strong and with so many problems with that case that my most likely conclusion is she was an insane tyrant who's goal is to override the rule of law by virtue of wearing a funny looking robe.
> and express no remorse for the clear destruction they caused to other people’s lives.
They obviously do multiple times in the article, including the same paragraph you referenced in your comment.
"He said he wished he hadn’t hurt his family, or his victims, but he seemed hopeful that the friendships he made would endure. “I’m not saying what I did was a good thing, it’s a horrible community, and what I did was bad,” Noah said. “But I loved my life. I like who I am. I’m glad I was able to live life as I lived it.”"
Did someone steal your shitcoin?
> I’m glad I was able to live life as I lived it.
he's not even pretending he has regrets. All that around is just PR, he's a serial manipulator and there's no reason to believe that he's suddenly changed after such a short period of time.
> He said he wished he hadn’t hurt his family, or his victims
He literally says he has regrets in the first sentence of the paragraph.
> All that around is just PR, he's a serial manipulator and there's no reason to believe that he's suddenly changed after such a short period of time.
Maybe. That's you opinion. I'm not a mind reader, and I don't really care. Plenty of white-collar criminals get much lighter sentences for stealing much more money.
He also says multiple times that "this felt like me" and "I loved living this life" and the FBI agent says, based on their experience, he had no remorse.