If we’re talking about a reset, then the EU should ban Google/Apple/Amazon/Huawei/Xiaomi/Meta/etc products and services in their entirety, and finance/incentivize local companies to provide replacements.
As a EU citizen I don’t see why those companies should have the disproportionate amount of control and oversight in our daily lives they have today while our bureaucracies are stuck in a constant game of cat and mouse against them, as they have proven countless times they see EU regulation as hurdles to be worked around rather than fundamental rules to play by.
sucks that market forces doesn't allow a lone developer to be noticed against one of these companies because people refuse to spend time to try something new. as if time costs money. if we spend time on marketing we will be worse developers. then be surprised when one person takes down entire sector.
Because it’s (semi-)free market economy and Google doesn’t do anything illegal, no property rights violations. The term “disproportionate” would better describe mafia splitting robbed money, which is what the EU does all the time.
Oh of course Google is pushing this too. I thought Apple was dumb to push this, makes more sense as a multilateral thing.
I’m sure the EU won’t take a dim view of this at all.
“Senator, we’d like racketeering laws repealed. They’re making running our protection rackets much harder. How are we supposed to innovate for our customers if you keep making new kinds of threats illegal?”
And it’s impossible to go to the hotel, airline website directly? I for one refuse to use a third party booking company. If anything goes wrong or you want to change snything, the hotel can’t really do anything.
The issue with DMA is that the laws are very vague and appear to forbid basically any private API calls between products if your business is big. You basically need to turn every one of your systems into an AWS service; and then on top of that not favor your own system over those registered by competitors. This is supposed to level the playing field but making and maintaining public APIs like this is tons of work in terms of coordination and so stuff really does take a lot longer to build for EU to meet the requirements; or to confirm that it somehow doesn’t need to be a public API.
That sounds wonderful, I wish it worked like that. Imagine Microsoft needing to fully document OneDrive integration points and APIs and make it possible for me to plug my NAS / ownCloud / NextCloud / whatever with the same level of integration.
The fact that companies like Google are complaining (while pretending like they’re looking out for consumers - which is unsavory) is a great signal indicator that this is going to disrupt monopolistic / anti-consumer business practice's. Good.
You know it can be both, right? Standing up to tech giants can be a good pretext to introduce new taxes, create new smaller monopolies who happen to be your friends, spy on the masses, etc.
But it’s all cool, we are standing up for the tech feudalists.
on Android by forcing us to remove our legitimate safeguards that protect users’ security and safety
All you want is complete control, as evidenced by your intention to lock down devices against their actual owners. Google is effectively an unelected global government at this point. Piss off!
Yes, time for a reset. A reset of all the influence foreign companies have on my country! It is many the times I have daydreamed of seizing their assets and pushing them out... Goodbye Apple, goodbye Google!
It's crazy talk. Who's got the time to standardize messaging and data for WWAN modems on mobile devices? It's not like any operating systems ever implemented userland emulation of Android or iOS APIs and delivered a roughly identical experience to customers. Way too unrealistic, we're talking about space age technology here.
We should be happy that Google and Apple don't charge us more for all their hard work. If they leave there are no other phone manufacturers in the world, Europe would simply return to the dark ages.
It's interesting to see the number of folks apparently in favor of DMA and the strict regulatory environment in EU. Genuinely curious: what is the concrete benefit for users (and does it offset the negatives)? And does this foster a healthy and thriving environment for innovation?
In my liberal view it sounds awful for users and entrepreneurs alike. Wondering what are the arguments in favor (other than "apple/google = bad").
E.g.
Consider the DMA’s impact on Europe’s tourism industry. The DMA requires Google Search to stop showing useful travel results that link directly to airline and hotel sites, and instead show links to intermediary websites that charge for inclusion. This raises prices for consumers, reduces traffic to businesses, and makes it harder for people to quickly find reliable, direct booking information.
Just a day ago, we've had Google's idea of "useful results" frontpaged: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45366566. Between this, the malicious restrictions being added to Android, and countless other things, I'm genuinely surprised anyone still believes them to be acting in users' best interests.
In your quote, aren’t those the same thing? Isn’t Google just playing intermediary and integrating it onto their website and claiming that’s different?
Correct, but in this case people went to Google to search for flights, so one may argue the user wants to see, well, flight information. Yet, despite Google knowing the answer, it cannot show to users, per DMA.
Instead, Google needs to send the user to a 3P website, which may or may not have the information the user is looking for. And the 3P website needs to monetize its traffic, so you should expect another wave of ads (in addition to the ones you already saw at google.com), plus cookie consent banners, affiliate links, offer for hotels, car rental, etc.
"Regulatory burdens and uncertainty are delaying our launch of new products, like our latest AI features, by up to a year after they launch in the rest of the world."
The AI features cause the same problems they are claiming the DMA creates...
Reset is the right word. Break-up these mega corps that naturally have become extractive to the point they themselves starting to rot. If "break-up" is too strong, call it a "reset".
The EU should tell Goggle to go take a long walk off a short dock.
>The DMA’s biggest challenge remains: How do we boost innovation and deliver cutting-edge products to Europe while navigating complex and untested new rules?
Why should Europe want to cave to Goggle's desire to deepen its clawhold on Europe's market? To help it extend its monopoly deep into the rest of civilization?
I have a hard time seeing them doing that. Seems like it would be too big a hit to the stock price.
However, on the other side, if the EU does manage to drive Apple or Google out I wonder if that would cause them real problems from citizens.
Regulations can certainly be nice but at a certain point people may get very annoyed by the results to the point of wanting them removed, even if they’re doing a good job at exactly what they were designed for. Simply because they’re inconveniencing people through the fault of the company making the device.
If you were to run a poll what percent of people would be willing to just give up the smartphone brand they like for something that isn’t android or iOS for the sake of DMA enforcement?
>Lower quality online services: People in the EU need up to 50% more searches to find what they need when they search for hotels, restaurants and things to buy.
The EU is wasting their citizens time with this law. It should be reverted as the current version is hurting consumers.
If we’re talking about a reset, then the EU should ban Google/Apple/Amazon/Huawei/Xiaomi/Meta/etc products and services in their entirety, and finance/incentivize local companies to provide replacements.
As a EU citizen I don’t see why those companies should have the disproportionate amount of control and oversight in our daily lives they have today while our bureaucracies are stuck in a constant game of cat and mouse against them, as they have proven countless times they see EU regulation as hurdles to be worked around rather than fundamental rules to play by.
Is that realistic? Or would the pain of that be high enough to cause a revolt against the law to allow people’s beloved phone OSes back?
I’m not arguing the status who is good, more “is it too late to fix?”
sucks that market forces doesn't allow a lone developer to be noticed against one of these companies because people refuse to spend time to try something new. as if time costs money. if we spend time on marketing we will be worse developers. then be surprised when one person takes down entire sector.
Because it’s (semi-)free market economy and Google doesn’t do anything illegal, no property rights violations. The term “disproportionate” would better describe mafia splitting robbed money, which is what the EU does all the time.
Oh of course Google is pushing this too. I thought Apple was dumb to push this, makes more sense as a multilateral thing.
I’m sure the EU won’t take a dim view of this at all.
“Senator, we’d like racketeering laws repealed. They’re making running our protection rackets much harder. How are we supposed to innovate for our customers if you keep making new kinds of threats illegal?”
The booking.com CEO also said the DMA was misguided for the same reason on the Stratechery podcast released this week.
Maybe the EU should actually foster an environment where tech companies can grow and compete.
Maybe I will take your comment seriously when Booking is a small player.
So now we are calling booking.com a “monopoly” and there is no other way to easily make hotel and airline reservations?
Why not regulate Spotify as part of the DMA then?
Not an EU citizen, but I think the amount artists get paid from streaming is a crime.
“But it would kill streaming music!“
If your business model doesn’t work without screwing over the producer of goods, perhaps your business model just doesn’t work.
No, we are not. The DMA does not talk about "monopolies".
Booking.com parent company (that owns almost every significant booking system) is a monopoly.
And it’s impossible to go to the hotel, airline website directly? I for one refuse to use a third party booking company. If anything goes wrong or you want to change snything, the hotel can’t really do anything.
Google and Apple don't need any help growing. They need help accepting competition. I suspect Booking.com suffers from the same ailment.
I mean, they did it for sports betting...
[dead]
The issue with DMA is that the laws are very vague and appear to forbid basically any private API calls between products if your business is big. You basically need to turn every one of your systems into an AWS service; and then on top of that not favor your own system over those registered by competitors. This is supposed to level the playing field but making and maintaining public APIs like this is tons of work in terms of coordination and so stuff really does take a lot longer to build for EU to meet the requirements; or to confirm that it somehow doesn’t need to be a public API.
That sounds wonderful, I wish it worked like that. Imagine Microsoft needing to fully document OneDrive integration points and APIs and make it possible for me to plug my NAS / ownCloud / NextCloud / whatever with the same level of integration.
[dead]
The fact that companies like Google are complaining (while pretending like they’re looking out for consumers - which is unsavory) is a great signal indicator that this is going to disrupt monopolistic / anti-consumer business practice's. Good.
What about anti-producer government practices?
You know it can be both, right? Standing up to tech giants can be a good pretext to introduce new taxes, create new smaller monopolies who happen to be your friends, spy on the masses, etc.
But it’s all cool, we are standing up for the tech feudalists.
on Android by forcing us to remove our legitimate safeguards that protect users’ security and safety
All you want is complete control, as evidenced by your intention to lock down devices against their actual owners. Google is effectively an unelected global government at this point. Piss off!
> How do we boost innovation and deliver cutting-edge products to Europe while navigating complex and untested new rules?
Ask your lawyers? They can parkour through the most complex laws when you need European tax loopholes.
What if you just tried making products that don’t seem to violate the rules on their face?
It’s not like the DMA outlaws software. It deals with certain practices, and makes certain business models pretty untenable.
But it doesn’t just ban everything.
Yes, time for a reset. A reset of all the influence foreign companies have on my country! It is many the times I have daydreamed of seizing their assets and pushing them out... Goodbye Apple, goodbye Google!
So, what, every country is going to have its own cell phone operating systems? Instead of two mobile OS's we'll have hundreds?
It's crazy talk. Who's got the time to standardize messaging and data for WWAN modems on mobile devices? It's not like any operating systems ever implemented userland emulation of Android or iOS APIs and delivered a roughly identical experience to customers. Way too unrealistic, we're talking about space age technology here.
We should be happy that Google and Apple don't charge us more for all their hard work. If they leave there are no other phone manufacturers in the world, Europe would simply return to the dark ages.
I just can't see it being allowed by Washington.
Yeah, the US might do something crazy in response like put up tariffs on allied democracies
I wasn’t aware they had veto power.
I get they THINK they do.
But I don’t think they do.
Why did I read this comment in Russian?
It's interesting to see the number of folks apparently in favor of DMA and the strict regulatory environment in EU. Genuinely curious: what is the concrete benefit for users (and does it offset the negatives)? And does this foster a healthy and thriving environment for innovation?
In my liberal view it sounds awful for users and entrepreneurs alike. Wondering what are the arguments in favor (other than "apple/google = bad").
E.g.
Consider the DMA’s impact on Europe’s tourism industry. The DMA requires Google Search to stop showing useful travel results that link directly to airline and hotel sites, and instead show links to intermediary websites that charge for inclusion. This raises prices for consumers, reduces traffic to businesses, and makes it harder for people to quickly find reliable, direct booking information.
Just a day ago, we've had Google's idea of "useful results" frontpaged: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45366566. Between this, the malicious restrictions being added to Android, and countless other things, I'm genuinely surprised anyone still believes them to be acting in users' best interests.
Just a day ago, we've had Google's idea of "useful results" frontpaged:
I'm not following. How does DMA help with this?
In your quote, aren’t those the same thing? Isn’t Google just playing intermediary and integrating it onto their website and claiming that’s different?
Correct, but in this case people went to Google to search for flights, so one may argue the user wants to see, well, flight information. Yet, despite Google knowing the answer, it cannot show to users, per DMA.
Instead, Google needs to send the user to a 3P website, which may or may not have the information the user is looking for. And the 3P website needs to monetize its traffic, so you should expect another wave of ads (in addition to the ones you already saw at google.com), plus cookie consent banners, affiliate links, offer for hotels, car rental, etc.
Is this a better experience for users?
"Regulatory burdens and uncertainty are delaying our launch of new products, like our latest AI features, by up to a year after they launch in the rest of the world."
The AI features cause the same problems they are claiming the DMA creates...
The biggest corporations complaining? What a coincidence.
Something says to me that DMA is working as intended.
Reset is the right word. Break-up these mega corps that naturally have become extractive to the point they themselves starting to rot. If "break-up" is too strong, call it a "reset".
The EU should tell Goggle to go take a long walk off a short dock.
>The DMA’s biggest challenge remains: How do we boost innovation and deliver cutting-edge products to Europe while navigating complex and untested new rules?
Why should Europe want to cave to Goggle's desire to deepen its clawhold on Europe's market? To help it extend its monopoly deep into the rest of civilization?
The position title of the author is the cherry on the top: "Senior Director, Competition".
Related:
Apple says it may stop shipping to the EU
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45372515
I have a hard time seeing them doing that. Seems like it would be too big a hit to the stock price.
However, on the other side, if the EU does manage to drive Apple or Google out I wonder if that would cause them real problems from citizens.
Regulations can certainly be nice but at a certain point people may get very annoyed by the results to the point of wanting them removed, even if they’re doing a good job at exactly what they were designed for. Simply because they’re inconveniencing people through the fault of the company making the device.
If you were to run a poll what percent of people would be willing to just give up the smartphone brand they like for something that isn’t android or iOS for the sake of DMA enforcement?
The drug maybe too strong to resist.
Section 230: time for a reset
>Lower quality online services: People in the EU need up to 50% more searches to find what they need when they search for hotels, restaurants and things to buy.
The EU is wasting their citizens time with this law. It should be reverted as the current version is hurting consumers.
Off topic but can we acknowledge how insane it is that Google gets its own TLD?
You too could have your own TLD.
If only the US had some kind if law to limit the power of a single company over markets a broad as "information services"
https://newgtlds.icann.org/en/applicants/global-support/faqs...
https://newgtldprogram.icann.org/en