Perhaps because disrupting things was the actual goal, rather than saving money. DOGE was highly effective in harming the entities meant to oversee Musk's companies, stealing information about union organizing and labor complaints, reducing the government's ability to collect taxes, and destroying its regulatory capacity.
Well, for Twitter it's fine. It's a private company, and the shareholders can only blame themselves for the management they put in charge.
(From a broader society point of view, I'm a bit sad that they didn't actually manage to run Twitter into the ground. I think Twitter's a net-negative for humanity. But that's a different topic. People obviously like using it.)
Musk is uniquely stupid and arrogant for refusing to understand very complex systems before making radical changes to them. This behavior directly led to outages at Twitter after he brought it.
Why wouldn't Peter Principle apply just because the magical financial threshold is crossed? This is Peter Principle in a textbook way, a promotion from managing companies to managing the government.
my original thesis is wrong - while musk may have petered up to the top, that doesnt imply his actions must also be attributed to stupidity. the error in the thesis is conflation of stupidity with the raw brutal strength of cancer
I don't think that's right - although of course we are speculating about what's happening inside the head of Musk.
Musk strikes me as an juvenile and naive man, precisely the kind of man that would take a hatchet to a complex system while believing he is competently reforming. His experience with taking over Twitter probably reinforced his belief that you can move fast and break organisations and, despite all the moaning from liberals, nothing bad will happen in the end.
So Musk is exactly the man to honestly believe in what he was doing, and he was immersed in a right wing echo chamber, which for 50 years has been talking about government waste.
Don't ascribe to malevolence what can be explained by incompetence.
This was years in the making. He basically made a $200 million bet on the USG, one that translated into hundreds of billions. This was all calculated, and the veneer of government inefficiency was good enough to mask his actual objectives.
I can say this confidently because that's what I would have done too, and I'm not half as smart as him (given that I haven't built a Paypal or a SpaceX myself). That's what anyone in such a privileged position would have done. The upside to doing it that way was just that much massive.
Smart doesn't work like that. I have little doubt that you are as "smart" as Elon.
Usually what people mean when they say "smart" is actually more like meaning of the word "canny," which helps explain the distinction. A canny decision is one that makes you look smart in retrospect.
To put it another way, I might climb to the top of a hill. Climbing the hill doesn't make me taller, but it does get me the benefits of being able to see everything for miles around.
Perhaps after climbing a hill/Ent I see Saruman's army marching off to war, and realize that even though I may be a halfling, right now I could say a particular thing that would be "as the falling of small stones that starts an avalanche in the mountains." This is a canny moment, and like any canny moment or is filled with surreal possibility. But it isn't because Meriadoc is a tall hobbit and, not because only a tall person could do this thing that involves seeing a great distance.
> That's what anyone in such a privileged position would have done.
That’s what anyone who’s self-centered and morally bankrupt enough would do perhaps, but no, not “anyone”. Some people are committed to being good (or at least striving towards it).
Your take strikes me as sociopathic at worst, and misguided at best. Much like musk, to your point.
The idea that he is “stupid” or “naive” while also being the world’s wealthiest man by far needs to die
What he really is is a sociopath who uses the idea of “doing good” to infiltrate systems and setup laws and legal structures that benefit him and his companies
I don’t buy any of the goody-two-shoes “for the sake of humanity” persona and neither should you. But the worst thing you can do is dismiss his sociopathy as naivete or stupidity
I like how in today’s world and especially when it comes to Musk things cannot be as simple as incompetence. It has to be some 4D chess move. Like a reverse Hanlon’s razor: Never attribute to stupidity that which might be/maybe/perhaps explained by 4D chess move. It’s like 4chan leaking all over the Internet. And Musk can keep his genius legacy alive.
is it really 4D chess to imagine that a man under investigation by the federal government would desire to benefit from being given express permission to reduce force and efficacy of agencies directly threatening him?
I don't think Musk having bad faith intent shows him to be intelligent, more just greedy and selfish, but I think it's actually more irresponsible to believe that he had absolutely no idea what he was doing
There is a certain class of American that rides the knife edge between credulity and contempt in supporting and accepting the activities and intent of bad actors who pledge to get rid of the things they don't like and they people they detest. They're ever-ready to believe the barest of excuses and to hand-wave the worst excesses in this regard. Today's anti-woke are yesterday's McCarthyists, and history will note the echo.
The selfish kind. Unfortunately that seems to be the end goal of the American dream: "I got mine, fuck you." I can't tell you how many times I heard the "protect my family" argument from people I never thought would vote for that clown.
But people do come here specifically to be selfish. They like that they can be selfish here in ways that are socialized away in other countries. They like that they can even socialize their selfishness, forcing poor people to subsidize the rich.
They are typically uneducated victims of the largest and most well funded mass propaganda brainwashing campaigns in the history of mankind, to be fair. Forgive them, for they know not what they do. The perpetrators of the misinformation, however, know exactly what they’re doing.
I think this misrepresents the situation. Many of these people are well-educated and affluent. In fact, such efforts wouldn't be possible without the support of the wealthy and academic elite, including on the left. Stooge-of-the-month Ezra Klein is decried as a woke liberal by certain segments of the political sphere, and yet he's running interference against those who support forcing the affluent to give back some of their recent outsize gains (through his "abundance" tripe). It's not poor, rural red-staters listening to his message.
I don't understand how people don't get this. There's a list of such agencies being gutted, but because it's compiled by democrats, the maggats just claim it's "biased".
Because there wasn't that much to save, compared to the sheer size of the budget? Because it's much easier to destroy than to build, generally? Because it's always been more of an ideological exercise and a revenge vehicle than a real cost-saving venture?
consulting company i work at hired a grip of these people for construction and public land projects. struggle with guilt that our success is the result of capitalizing on incompetence and lies
we certainly charge at least 3x cost for gov to employ them on top of whatever severance they might have received. the work still needs to be done and specific people know how to do it. sort of becoming a staffing agency because theres so much profit in it. makes my stomach sick writing this out
McKinsey and other consulting firms are built on this principle. Lobby for “retiring” or deskilling people in organisation and then replace them with your own contractors once problems arise.
Basically irrelevant to taxpayers. Their salaries or triple their salaries will add up to a difference of a couple dollars on the average tax bill. Doge didn't actually cut any of the big expenses. It was only intended to cut the effective things.
> Please forward your next raise to me, since it will only raise your taxes.
Joking aside that's not really how taxes work (in the USA anyway).
A raise might move you into a higher top marginal tax rate, but only the money you earn above that new bracket threshold gets taxed at the higher rate, everything below the threshold continues to get taxed at the same rate as before.
Raises don't increase your taxes (though you might end up with a slightly higher top tax rate solely on the new money you weren't making at all before).
The US is being run by a hostile regime which is intent on destroying wealth, health, stability, and credibility.
The people who have convinced themselves government is evil and taxes are bad are useful idiots. They're being used by others who very much want to destroy the US as a superpower.
Musk is between the two. He's acting to keep his ass out of jail, and he's a True Believer in certain senses.
But ultimately he's disposable, and will be removed when he's no longer useful.
> Unless they thought appearing to be complete morons would distract from their actual mission of stealing all the Federal data they could.
That and the fact that many of the targeted organizations were regulating Musk's companies or even investigating them for serious violations. I don't think that I've seen such a blatant display of conflict of interest quite like this one.
Even if removing corruption was an actual goal, the big corrupt whales that do exist were/are just like Elon himself, all well-connected and had already paid their bribes to the current regime, making them untouchable.
Or smash and delete. If you needed to infiltrate government to cover something up you wouldn’t go straight for it. You would infiltrate many points at once and create chaos and misdirection to obfuscate what you’re really doing.
2nd law of thermodynamics is what makes destructiveness so costly. It is much easier and cheaper to destroy than to build or rebuild. The Trump administration is devaluing the United States at an alarming rate.
As I understand it, this is to wreck the government oversight on the conduct of the rich and the powerful. They really want to establish a full blown oligarchy. And they managed to convince the poor people that the government is bad for them too.
Systematic of so much clown techbro thought; idiots only see the obvious nicks and problems -- and even occasional absurdity -- in large institutions, and think they can come in fix everything.
It's just an extension of good ol' Chesterton's fence.
The intent was never savings. Hackers and Accountants are completely different specialties. If you send in hackers, the intent is obviously to hack, not conduct forensic accounting. (The inverse would also be true of course)
I remember people citing the All-In podcast about "you can always cut 10% without affecting things negatively" or something silly like that. Or thinking that $1T/year of cuts is something that's possible without taking out social security and medicare and tons of defense spending.
I can not tell you how much respect I have lost for anybody involved with the All-In podcast. They sold out all credibility for political wins for wanna-be fascists.
These jokers all got lucky, obviously. They can not perform basic analysis of organizations, clearly. What a joke of a result!
PJ O'Rourke had a line in his book "Parliament of Whores" when he, as a layman, ham-fistedly cuts a bunch of stuff from the federal budget, and then just subtracts 10% from it at the end. Probably not the originator, but a quote I think about often.
"Add it all together, and I've cut $282.8 billion, leaving a federal
budget of $950.5 billion, to which I apply O'Rourke's Circumcision Precept: You can take 10 percent off the top of anything. This gives me another
$95 billion in cuts for a grand total of $337.8 billion in budget liposuction."
I have never worked for the government, but have worked in industry that deals with government employees. One thing that is very different in industry than in government budgets is that industry budgets do have that 10% of waste. But the budgets of all government orgs I have seen are incredibly lean, especially on the salary side. The government gets mission-driven folks that are willing to give up income in order to accomplish the things they want in the world. I saw this most clearly at CDC, all the scientists I interacted with could double their salary over night by going to private industry, but they stayed where they were because they were more interested in doing meaningful and impactful work. And when it came to the budgets that CDC used to accomplish scientific work, they were even more frugal and effective than the most penny-pinching academic labs I saw. Industry is awash in waste in comparison to how effective the dollars were that were spent at CDC.
And the CDC work is all pre-competitive work that boosts the efficacy of everything else in the economy. A tiny amount of money that results in so much more economic activity and savings than could be imagined in most private industry. And all the numbers for the public savings on, say, food safety are all clearly laid out in long reports. Reports that nobody at DOGE would ever read because they don't believe than anything good could be produced by people who accept lower salaries for higher impact.
I've seen private companies cutting down on logging expenses that would completely fund my friend's whole research department at Stockholm's University.
There's absurd waste in private companies which always makes me laugh when people say the government is inefficient.
Government IS inefficient though, and it's inefficient because there is zero competition and also complete job security. It's also inefficient because the employees are generally bottom of the barrel folks due to the incredibly poor wages.
So you can get people working in the government who couldn't get a job in the private sector if they tried, working with total job security (they can't get fired) for an entity with zero competition so there is no drive or motivation to get better or otherwise improve.
Whereas with private companies you can get hired quickly and fired quickly, meaning you have to perform well (motivation), you are paid better so you attract higher quality candidates, and also if the company does badly you go bankrupt, which means the whole company performs better or dies. The companies which remain win the market and are more efficient (as they are the companies which survived).
My understanding of what you say is true, and NASA is a common example of high value cultural and economic outcomes for the pittance the US government budgets/allocates for it.
O'Rourke's take is an interesting read; it is commentary that is meant to be more humorous and entertaining than political, I think he excelled at that in the entirety of Parliament of Whores. It was published in 1991 in a different political climate. He does admit he's doing this for fun, that the takes he express are mostly uninformed about the nature of many of these government departments and programs, and takes a (traditional) conservative (high level, and ahem, naive) view of many government programs. For example, additional quotes from that PoW chapter:
> Training and employment is properly the concern of trainees and employers: $5.7 billion.
> Insurance companies should gladly pay for consumer and occupational health and safety: $1.5 billion.
> If unemployment insurance is really insurance, it ought to at least break even: $18.6 billion.
I shared this for the Circumcision Precept bit; the portions of the quote surrounding that were context.
Yes, certain government agencies appeal to professionals as vocations rather than jobs. I have a friend who joined the FBI straight out of college. They don't EVER chat about their job, but I GUARANTEE you a private-industry offer at a significant bump in pay wouldn't make them flinch.
CDC? Every day you go home believing that you are part of a machine saving thousands of lives. BATF? Keeping guns away from terrorists.
And it's not a self-delusion. They ARE doing good things, even if the agency isn't perfect.
> I predicted it would net cost money if you did a full accounting. May end up being true.
People don't appreciate the role of a working executive branch and government bureaucracy in keeping the nation working, stable and relatively free from unfair practices, no matter how inefficient they may seem. In most cases, they are inefficient and have other problems because they're understaffed.
I absolutely agree about the billionaires. Not just because they're out of touch with reality, those government agencies are big hurdles to their pursuit of unlimited wealth by any means necessary. This was splendidly evident in the way Musk targeted the agencies that were either regulating or investigating his companies.
But what perplexes me is the hostility against government bureaucrats shown by ordinary people who are getting impoverished. I see them routinely complaining online that government workers are lazy parasites who live off their tax money. Some people take it further, saying that these workers are part of the 'deep state' out to enslave them.
Sure! Any bureaucracy will have some bad apples and corruption. But how do they miss the part that the government bureaucracy is the last line of defense blocking their all out exploitation? Like others point out, most government workers are too qualified and work too hard for what they are paid. They often take a pay cut to work on their passion and help everyone in the process. You can see this in the numerous bureaucrats who strongly resisted illegal and/or anti constitutional orders from the regime. Why are the people so oblivious to these?
Abstraction. They can't see how a functioning government benefits them. The only people who need a functioning government, in their mind, are the leeches and welfare queens, not the hard working rugged individuals like them who have never taken a penny in government aid (again abstraction. Tax policy that subsidizes mortgage holders, for example, does not occur to them as a handout. Or social security. It's not a handout because "I paid into it", not considering that they get back more than they contributed).
Makes sense. But why is that? Are they not educated enough to realize it? Or don't they bother to apply their common sense to such topics? Also, where do they get these weird alternative explanations from?
PS: I'm not from the US. What I know is from both mainstream and social media. I'm curious about the fundamental reasons on the ground too.
>where do they get these weird alternative explanations from?
Surely you're aware of cable news in the US, like Fox News, etc. but before that, for about 40 years now[0], AM talk radio has played a huge part in developing this messaging. I grew up with this as my main channel for awareness of current events, hearing about everything that happens through this lens.
I'm not sure if this [1] is accessible outside the US, but give a listen between 3 and 9 pm EST (GMT-5) though certainly not limited to these hours. You'll learn a lot about the American right wing mindset, and how the middle class is effectively messaged to. Talk radio is a lot more free form and ephemeral, so you'll hear a lot more improvised and extreme ideas than you would in a TV broadcast. It's quite a spectacle.
No, that's just going to reinforce that government doesn't work, which justifies starving the beast further. I don't know how one party has so successfully created this feedback loop, where the more they lose, the more they win. I guess its simply that destruction is easier than creation
Because the whole thing wasn't actually wanted. They just needed some theatre to make it look like they were fulfilling their campaign promise.
Trying to get a government to reduce its spending from within is stupid and naive.
There is no scenario, no matter who is voted in, where government spending goes down. They just talk about it, and then increase spending on the things they like (e.g. the last "big beautiful bill").
This was the primary cause of the Trump-Musk spat: former promised the latter a cost cutting campaign, but it was just a trick, used only to destroy those parts of the government he disliked like USAID, after which he promptly neutered it and signed a massive spending bill, basically having conned him.
If it has actually been wanted - something that's literally impossible unless it was say created through an Article 5 convention - it would have been effective.
If musk, Trump, or any of their allies had any interest in cutting spending, they wouldn't have passed budgets increasing the deficit every chance they've had.
Must got what he wanted: some minor disruption to agencies that regulate him personally, the fear of god put into thousands of federal employees, and ostensibly federal data to help him bust unions.
The side effect of disrupting thousands of normal hard working people's lives it's just icing on the cake for a miserable prick like him, even if he did have to hire most of them back.
But if they could destroy the regulatory state while ALSO doubling the deficit with federal spending on defense, space, and oil, i don't doubt for a second they would do so.
We all knew this would fail. Any leader worth their salt would know massive reorganizations are failures even when they aren’t unconstitutional and worthy of the death penalty.
> We all fall into this trap, thinking we can do better than others.
It took me a while to learn this lesson about complex systems.
First week at a new job? It’s easy to identify all the ways things are done wrong. Six months later you begin to understand why they were done “wrong”.
Or: you realise that it was the pet project of someone who is now in charge and no matter how wrong/broken/costly it is, there will never be political will to allow change until they're gone.
> First week at a new job? It’s easy to identify all the ways things are done wrong. Six months later you begin to understand why they were done “wrong”.
> We all fall into this trap, thinking we can do better than others.
I do not think we all have the level of hubris required to shit all over large governmental organizations as Musk did. I think maybe even the majority of people would say woah hold up let’s take look at what’s going on before tearing it down.
And of course that’s under the charitable assumption his actions weren’t malicious.
> Elon Musk is a smart salesman but that's about it. He has little deep knowledge in a lot of what he does.
No, I think it's the opposite — he's extremely knowledgeable about engineering and science [1], but quite hopeless at social things. If he was ignorant of technical stuff then SpaceX and Tesla would not have succeeded, and conversely if he was a good salesman he would have foreseen how badly his political actions would hurt Twitter and Tesla.
It's quite foolish to think someone is stupid or ignorant just because you don't agree with their politics.
He's been on public twitter calls before and his engineering knowledge is pathetic. I'm sorry but he's not knowledgeable about engineering or science, he's marketable about those things. People conflate the two often, but one will fall apart like a jenga tower the moment you push it even a little.
And a bunch of out of context quotes from folks that are either buddies with him or don't know shit is not convincing.
Why do you presume they can’t? Musk failed phenomenally to sell DOGE to the public, the President or the Congress. The expectation was that he’d have been better at that.
The way most of our governments are set up, the people in power typically arrive on the backs of the people with money. Elon Musk has a great deal of wealth, so everyone in power is going to listen to him.
Power respects power, ultimately. If you have wealth and power, those in power assume it was earned, because otherwise it's admitting that their own power could be through luck.
I will say that there are a few billionaires out there that do not get respect because everybody else assumes they "got lucky," but it's certainly not many billionaires. And those that people assume "got lucky" have mostly had terrible PR management on their way up, and not bothered to try to clean up their image. I have taken investment from one such billionaire that people would tell me "he got lucky," and though I don't think he got lucky to make his billions, he was also really terrible in his judgement and could not make the switch to investing even in similar industries successfully.
Perhaps because disrupting things was the actual goal, rather than saving money. DOGE was highly effective in harming the entities meant to oversee Musk's companies, stealing information about union organizing and labor complaints, reducing the government's ability to collect taxes, and destroying its regulatory capacity.
Or maybe the unelected moronic clown running it went in with a chainsaw like when he took over twitter.
Giving zero f*cks for the massive harm caused or the legality of it.
Well, for Twitter it's fine. It's a private company, and the shareholders can only blame themselves for the management they put in charge.
(From a broader society point of view, I'm a bit sad that they didn't actually manage to run Twitter into the ground. I think Twitter's a net-negative for humanity. But that's a different topic. People obviously like using it.)
Not just Twitter almost all of social media apps are net negative for humanity.
yes. precisely.
Except Hacker News :)
Musk is uniquely stupid and arrogant for refusing to understand very complex systems before making radical changes to them. This behavior directly led to outages at Twitter after he brought it.
I don't think hanlon's razor applies to billionaires , unless the peter principle holds true all the way to the very top
Why wouldn't Peter Principle apply just because the magical financial threshold is crossed? This is Peter Principle in a textbook way, a promotion from managing companies to managing the government.
Was he ever competent in something, tho?
my original thesis is wrong - while musk may have petered up to the top, that doesnt imply his actions must also be attributed to stupidity. the error in the thesis is conflation of stupidity with the raw brutal strength of cancer
The purpose of a system is what it does
Elon's still pumping his DOGE work and the Cybertruck daily on his X account.
That is just pathetic.
This is the right take
This is disturbing.
They actually had competence at something..?
Disregarding the state, all data protection rules, and running amock; yes they are competent maligners.
I don't think that's right - although of course we are speculating about what's happening inside the head of Musk.
Musk strikes me as an juvenile and naive man, precisely the kind of man that would take a hatchet to a complex system while believing he is competently reforming. His experience with taking over Twitter probably reinforced his belief that you can move fast and break organisations and, despite all the moaning from liberals, nothing bad will happen in the end.
So Musk is exactly the man to honestly believe in what he was doing, and he was immersed in a right wing echo chamber, which for 50 years has been talking about government waste.
Don't ascribe to malevolence what can be explained by incompetence.
He did so the hyperloop just to stall trains. So there is precedent.
You underestimate Musk too much.
This was years in the making. He basically made a $200 million bet on the USG, one that translated into hundreds of billions. This was all calculated, and the veneer of government inefficiency was good enough to mask his actual objectives.
I can say this confidently because that's what I would have done too, and I'm not half as smart as him (given that I haven't built a Paypal or a SpaceX myself). That's what anyone in such a privileged position would have done. The upside to doing it that way was just that much massive.
Smart doesn't work like that. I have little doubt that you are as "smart" as Elon.
Usually what people mean when they say "smart" is actually more like meaning of the word "canny," which helps explain the distinction. A canny decision is one that makes you look smart in retrospect.
To put it another way, I might climb to the top of a hill. Climbing the hill doesn't make me taller, but it does get me the benefits of being able to see everything for miles around.
Perhaps after climbing a hill/Ent I see Saruman's army marching off to war, and realize that even though I may be a halfling, right now I could say a particular thing that would be "as the falling of small stones that starts an avalanche in the mountains." This is a canny moment, and like any canny moment or is filled with surreal possibility. But it isn't because Meriadoc is a tall hobbit and, not because only a tall person could do this thing that involves seeing a great distance.
Musk didn't build PayPal or spacex
> That's what anyone in such a privileged position would have done.
That’s what anyone who’s self-centered and morally bankrupt enough would do perhaps, but no, not “anyone”. Some people are committed to being good (or at least striving towards it).
Your take strikes me as sociopathic at worst, and misguided at best. Much like musk, to your point.
The idea that he is “stupid” or “naive” while also being the world’s wealthiest man by far needs to die
What he really is is a sociopath who uses the idea of “doing good” to infiltrate systems and setup laws and legal structures that benefit him and his companies
I don’t buy any of the goody-two-shoes “for the sake of humanity” persona and neither should you. But the worst thing you can do is dismiss his sociopathy as naivete or stupidity
His behavior after buying Twitter really is stupid though.
Is it? Chaotic, certainly. But if you proposed in 2021 that there was a way to:
* make white nationalism acceptable on Twitter
* while increasing the US government's dependence on it
* at the same time that the US president owns a competing social media app
I think nearly anyone would have told you that's impossible. Strategic chaos in service of a bad goal just looks stupid from a distance.
I really think his entire Twitter purchase was a way to get political leverage
Musk is thinking far down the line
Maybe the point of buying Twitter was to help elect Trump and get his fingers into the administration
His net worth figure certainly seems to indicate that it wasn’t stupid
I like how in today’s world and especially when it comes to Musk things cannot be as simple as incompetence. It has to be some 4D chess move. Like a reverse Hanlon’s razor: Never attribute to stupidity that which might be/maybe/perhaps explained by 4D chess move. It’s like 4chan leaking all over the Internet. And Musk can keep his genius legacy alive.
is it really 4D chess to imagine that a man under investigation by the federal government would desire to benefit from being given express permission to reduce force and efficacy of agencies directly threatening him?
I don't think Musk having bad faith intent shows him to be intelligent, more just greedy and selfish, but I think it's actually more irresponsible to believe that he had absolutely no idea what he was doing
Under investigation for what? Like the self driving claims thing or something nefarious?
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2025/apr/28/elon-musk...
False claims of self driving is half of it, at 1B
Just because he is playing 4d chess, doesn't mean he is good at it.
Hanlon's razor is wrong to suggest an either or scenario when it is just as often some mix of stupidity and malice.
Never attribute to blatant corruption, "4D chess move" . There isn't anything sneaky or smart about what Elon pulled here.
There is a certain class of American that rides the knife edge between credulity and contempt in supporting and accepting the activities and intent of bad actors who pledge to get rid of the things they don't like and they people they detest. They're ever-ready to believe the barest of excuses and to hand-wave the worst excesses in this regard. Today's anti-woke are yesterday's McCarthyists, and history will note the echo.
> There is a certain class of American
The selfish kind. Unfortunately that seems to be the end goal of the American dream: "I got mine, fuck you." I can't tell you how many times I heard the "protect my family" argument from people I never thought would vote for that clown.
Also not exclussively American. Plenty of selfish assholes where I'm at as well, I suspect this is a world-wide phenomenon.
But people do come here specifically to be selfish. They like that they can be selfish here in ways that are socialized away in other countries. They like that they can even socialize their selfishness, forcing poor people to subsidize the rich.
The UK is a good example of this over the last decade (at least.)
They are typically uneducated victims of the largest and most well funded mass propaganda brainwashing campaigns in the history of mankind, to be fair. Forgive them, for they know not what they do. The perpetrators of the misinformation, however, know exactly what they’re doing.
I think this misrepresents the situation. Many of these people are well-educated and affluent. In fact, such efforts wouldn't be possible without the support of the wealthy and academic elite, including on the left. Stooge-of-the-month Ezra Klein is decried as a woke liberal by certain segments of the political sphere, and yet he's running interference against those who support forcing the affluent to give back some of their recent outsize gains (through his "abundance" tripe). It's not poor, rural red-staters listening to his message.
I don't understand how people don't get this. There's a list of such agencies being gutted, but because it's compiled by democrats, the maggats just claim it's "biased".
> Perhaps because disrupting things was the actual goal
It surprises me if anyone thought anything different. I mean, how could you think anything else if yo know what group of cronies there people are?
It's like Americans forgot all about what was wrong with the Rockefeller-era oligarchy. Even the MAGA slogan is just a copy from back then.
Because there wasn't that much to save, compared to the sheer size of the budget? Because it's much easier to destroy than to build, generally? Because it's always been more of an ideological exercise and a revenge vehicle than a real cost-saving venture?
The obvious answer that thinking people already know: “DOGE” was never about saving money or making government more efficient.
To me, it seems like another embarrassing attempt by two people who will keep trying to fill a childhood lack of love for the rest of their lives.
Many of the people they cut were able to negotiate a full year severance, then were hired back as contractors effectively earning double pay.
consulting company i work at hired a grip of these people for construction and public land projects. struggle with guilt that our success is the result of capitalizing on incompetence and lies
we certainly charge at least 3x cost for gov to employ them on top of whatever severance they might have received. the work still needs to be done and specific people know how to do it. sort of becoming a staffing agency because theres so much profit in it. makes my stomach sick writing this out
If you're seeing that much money, imagine how much is flowing to the big preexisting staffing firms...
Almost enough to make you think that gutting then offering employees back at higher cost and pocketing part of the difference was the goal.
McKinsey and other consulting firms are built on this principle. Lobby for “retiring” or deskilling people in organisation and then replace them with your own contractors once problems arise.
Good for them.
Not so good for taxpayers.
Basically irrelevant to taxpayers. Their salaries or triple their salaries will add up to a difference of a couple dollars on the average tax bill. Doge didn't actually cut any of the big expenses. It was only intended to cut the effective things.
It was never about saving money for the tax payers! They voted for this.
Which is also them
Please forward your next raise to me, since it will only raise your taxes.
> Please forward your next raise to me, since it will only raise your taxes.
Joking aside that's not really how taxes work (in the USA anyway).
A raise might move you into a higher top marginal tax rate, but only the money you earn above that new bracket threshold gets taxed at the higher rate, everything below the threshold continues to get taxed at the same rate as before.
Raises don't increase your taxes (though you might end up with a slightly higher top tax rate solely on the new money you weren't making at all before).
Meh, false; the cost of the disruption will almost certainly be comparable, if not outweigh, the money paid.
They will also be paying somewhere around 50k a year soon for heath insurance because contractors don't get benefits. Fun!
I work in state government and while contractors don’t get benefits that FTEs receive, they are usually paid close to double in salary.
Because that was the point.
I don’t buy that it was ever aimed at saving any more than RFK is about running a competent health dept
The US is being run by a hostile regime which is intent on destroying wealth, health, stability, and credibility.
The people who have convinced themselves government is evil and taxes are bad are useful idiots. They're being used by others who very much want to destroy the US as a superpower.
Musk is between the two. He's acting to keep his ass out of jail, and he's a True Believer in certain senses.
But ultimately he's disposable, and will be removed when he's no longer useful.
Because of the sheer idiocy of all involved.
There was no plan, no thought process behind any of the cuts.
Unless they thought appearing to be complete morons would distract from their actual mission of stealing all the Federal data they could.
The whole operation of black hats need to be investigated.
> Unless they thought appearing to be complete morons would distract from their actual mission of stealing all the Federal data they could.
That and the fact that many of the targeted organizations were regulating Musk's companies or even investigating them for serious violations. I don't think that I've seen such a blatant display of conflict of interest quite like this one.
The goal was to disrupt government bureaucracy. Saving money was never the real objective, even though it was marketed that way.
Anyone who knows how to use Excel understands that entitlements and defense are the biggest issue (60%) when it comes to government spending.
On top of that 60% is ~13% on net interest payments.
Politics ensures that nobody will know what was actually saved and lost.
Even if removing corruption was an actual goal, the big corrupt whales that do exist were/are just like Elon himself, all well-connected and had already paid their bribes to the current regime, making them untouchable.
It was a smash & grab.
Or smash and delete. If you needed to infiltrate government to cover something up you wouldn’t go straight for it. You would infiltrate many points at once and create chaos and misdirection to obfuscate what you’re really doing.
Backdoors. US government privacy is now compromised at most levels.
Nitpick. Governments don't have privacy. They have opacity. Don't anthropomorphize governments, especially not to that extent.
2nd law of thermodynamics is what makes destructiveness so costly. It is much easier and cheaper to destroy than to build or rebuild. The Trump administration is devaluing the United States at an alarming rate.
As I understand it, this is to wreck the government oversight on the conduct of the rich and the powerful. They really want to establish a full blown oligarchy. And they managed to convince the poor people that the government is bad for them too.
Immune systems of all interested triggered.
Systematic of so much clown techbro thought; idiots only see the obvious nicks and problems -- and even occasional absurdity -- in large institutions, and think they can come in fix everything.
It's just an extension of good ol' Chesterton's fence.
The intent was never savings. Hackers and Accountants are completely different specialties. If you send in hackers, the intent is obviously to hack, not conduct forensic accounting. (The inverse would also be true of course)
I remember people citing the All-In podcast about "you can always cut 10% without affecting things negatively" or something silly like that. Or thinking that $1T/year of cuts is something that's possible without taking out social security and medicare and tons of defense spending.
I can not tell you how much respect I have lost for anybody involved with the All-In podcast. They sold out all credibility for political wins for wanna-be fascists.
These jokers all got lucky, obviously. They can not perform basic analysis of organizations, clearly. What a joke of a result!
PJ O'Rourke had a line in his book "Parliament of Whores" when he, as a layman, ham-fistedly cuts a bunch of stuff from the federal budget, and then just subtracts 10% from it at the end. Probably not the originator, but a quote I think about often.
"Add it all together, and I've cut $282.8 billion, leaving a federal budget of $950.5 billion, to which I apply O'Rourke's Circumcision Precept: You can take 10 percent off the top of anything. This gives me another $95 billion in cuts for a grand total of $337.8 billion in budget liposuction."
Parliament of Whores, page 103.
I have never worked for the government, but have worked in industry that deals with government employees. One thing that is very different in industry than in government budgets is that industry budgets do have that 10% of waste. But the budgets of all government orgs I have seen are incredibly lean, especially on the salary side. The government gets mission-driven folks that are willing to give up income in order to accomplish the things they want in the world. I saw this most clearly at CDC, all the scientists I interacted with could double their salary over night by going to private industry, but they stayed where they were because they were more interested in doing meaningful and impactful work. And when it came to the budgets that CDC used to accomplish scientific work, they were even more frugal and effective than the most penny-pinching academic labs I saw. Industry is awash in waste in comparison to how effective the dollars were that were spent at CDC.
And the CDC work is all pre-competitive work that boosts the efficacy of everything else in the economy. A tiny amount of money that results in so much more economic activity and savings than could be imagined in most private industry. And all the numbers for the public savings on, say, food safety are all clearly laid out in long reports. Reports that nobody at DOGE would ever read because they don't believe than anything good could be produced by people who accept lower salaries for higher impact.
I've seen private companies cutting down on logging expenses that would completely fund my friend's whole research department at Stockholm's University.
There's absurd waste in private companies which always makes me laugh when people say the government is inefficient.
Government IS inefficient though, and it's inefficient because there is zero competition and also complete job security. It's also inefficient because the employees are generally bottom of the barrel folks due to the incredibly poor wages.
So you can get people working in the government who couldn't get a job in the private sector if they tried, working with total job security (they can't get fired) for an entity with zero competition so there is no drive or motivation to get better or otherwise improve.
Whereas with private companies you can get hired quickly and fired quickly, meaning you have to perform well (motivation), you are paid better so you attract higher quality candidates, and also if the company does badly you go bankrupt, which means the whole company performs better or dies. The companies which remain win the market and are more efficient (as they are the companies which survived).
My understanding of what you say is true, and NASA is a common example of high value cultural and economic outcomes for the pittance the US government budgets/allocates for it.
O'Rourke's take is an interesting read; it is commentary that is meant to be more humorous and entertaining than political, I think he excelled at that in the entirety of Parliament of Whores. It was published in 1991 in a different political climate. He does admit he's doing this for fun, that the takes he express are mostly uninformed about the nature of many of these government departments and programs, and takes a (traditional) conservative (high level, and ahem, naive) view of many government programs. For example, additional quotes from that PoW chapter:
> Training and employment is properly the concern of trainees and employers: $5.7 billion.
> Insurance companies should gladly pay for consumer and occupational health and safety: $1.5 billion.
> If unemployment insurance is really insurance, it ought to at least break even: $18.6 billion.
I shared this for the Circumcision Precept bit; the portions of the quote surrounding that were context.
Yes, certain government agencies appeal to professionals as vocations rather than jobs. I have a friend who joined the FBI straight out of college. They don't EVER chat about their job, but I GUARANTEE you a private-industry offer at a significant bump in pay wouldn't make them flinch.
CDC? Every day you go home believing that you are part of a machine saving thousands of lives. BATF? Keeping guns away from terrorists.
And it's not a self-delusion. They ARE doing good things, even if the agency isn't perfect.
Because what they wanted was to "disrupt" and "saving" wasn't what they wanted.
Seemed like it was more about an ideological purge and possibly exfiltrating data than saving money.
I predicted it would net cost money if you did a full accounting. May end up being true.
> I predicted it would net cost money if you did a full accounting. May end up being true.
People don't appreciate the role of a working executive branch and government bureaucracy in keeping the nation working, stable and relatively free from unfair practices, no matter how inefficient they may seem. In most cases, they are inefficient and have other problems because they're understaffed.
That's because tech billionaires don't need all of that. They live in a bubble.
It's the same with Trump. Do you think he has ever been inside a grocery store?
I absolutely agree about the billionaires. Not just because they're out of touch with reality, those government agencies are big hurdles to their pursuit of unlimited wealth by any means necessary. This was splendidly evident in the way Musk targeted the agencies that were either regulating or investigating his companies.
But what perplexes me is the hostility against government bureaucrats shown by ordinary people who are getting impoverished. I see them routinely complaining online that government workers are lazy parasites who live off their tax money. Some people take it further, saying that these workers are part of the 'deep state' out to enslave them.
Sure! Any bureaucracy will have some bad apples and corruption. But how do they miss the part that the government bureaucracy is the last line of defense blocking their all out exploitation? Like others point out, most government workers are too qualified and work too hard for what they are paid. They often take a pay cut to work on their passion and help everyone in the process. You can see this in the numerous bureaucrats who strongly resisted illegal and/or anti constitutional orders from the regime. Why are the people so oblivious to these?
Abstraction. They can't see how a functioning government benefits them. The only people who need a functioning government, in their mind, are the leeches and welfare queens, not the hard working rugged individuals like them who have never taken a penny in government aid (again abstraction. Tax policy that subsidizes mortgage holders, for example, does not occur to them as a handout. Or social security. It's not a handout because "I paid into it", not considering that they get back more than they contributed).
Makes sense. But why is that? Are they not educated enough to realize it? Or don't they bother to apply their common sense to such topics? Also, where do they get these weird alternative explanations from?
PS: I'm not from the US. What I know is from both mainstream and social media. I'm curious about the fundamental reasons on the ground too.
>where do they get these weird alternative explanations from?
Surely you're aware of cable news in the US, like Fox News, etc. but before that, for about 40 years now[0], AM talk radio has played a huge part in developing this messaging. I grew up with this as my main channel for awareness of current events, hearing about everything that happens through this lens.
I'm not sure if this [1] is accessible outside the US, but give a listen between 3 and 9 pm EST (GMT-5) though certainly not limited to these hours. You'll learn a lot about the American right wing mindset, and how the middle class is effectively messaged to. Talk radio is a lot more free form and ephemeral, so you'll hear a lot more improvised and extreme ideas than you would in a TV broadcast. It's quite a spectacle.
[0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fairness_doctrine
[1]https://710wor.iheart.com/
Oh they will absolutely notice when they have to wait an entire day at the DMV for an extension of their driver's license.
No, that's just going to reinforce that government doesn't work, which justifies starving the beast further. I don't know how one party has so successfully created this feedback loop, where the more they lose, the more they win. I guess its simply that destruction is easier than creation
The disruption was the point — it was all distraction while Trump worked on setting up his second term.
Because the whole thing wasn't actually wanted. They just needed some theatre to make it look like they were fulfilling their campaign promise.
Trying to get a government to reduce its spending from within is stupid and naive.
There is no scenario, no matter who is voted in, where government spending goes down. They just talk about it, and then increase spending on the things they like (e.g. the last "big beautiful bill").
This was the primary cause of the Trump-Musk spat: former promised the latter a cost cutting campaign, but it was just a trick, used only to destroy those parts of the government he disliked like USAID, after which he promptly neutered it and signed a massive spending bill, basically having conned him.
If it has actually been wanted - something that's literally impossible unless it was say created through an Article 5 convention - it would have been effective.
Because it was about Elon musk’s companies getting out of being investigated. His pay off for helping Trump.
If musk, Trump, or any of their allies had any interest in cutting spending, they wouldn't have passed budgets increasing the deficit every chance they've had.
Must got what he wanted: some minor disruption to agencies that regulate him personally, the fear of god put into thousands of federal employees, and ostensibly federal data to help him bust unions.
The side effect of disrupting thousands of normal hard working people's lives it's just icing on the cake for a miserable prick like him, even if he did have to hire most of them back.
But if they could destroy the regulatory state while ALSO doubling the deficit with federal spending on defense, space, and oil, i don't doubt for a second they would do so.
Biased article behind a paywall.
We all knew this would fail. Any leader worth their salt would know massive reorganizations are failures even when they aren’t unconstitutional and worthy of the death penalty.
We all fall into this trap, thinking we can do better than others.
The problem is that Elon Musk has power (in the form of money) and was able to buy his way into the government.
Elon Musk is a smart salesman but that's about it. He has little deep knowledge in a lot of what he does.
> We all fall into this trap, thinking we can do better than others.
It took me a while to learn this lesson about complex systems.
First week at a new job? It’s easy to identify all the ways things are done wrong. Six months later you begin to understand why they were done “wrong”.
Or often: 6 months you realize how hard/expensive it is to correct even if it is wrong.
Or: you realise that it was the pet project of someone who is now in charge and no matter how wrong/broken/costly it is, there will never be political will to allow change until they're gone.
> First week at a new job? It’s easy to identify all the ways things are done wrong. Six months later you begin to understand why they were done “wrong”.
https://theknowledge.io/chestertons-fence-explained/
> We all fall into this trap, thinking we can do better than others.
I do not think we all have the level of hubris required to shit all over large governmental organizations as Musk did. I think maybe even the majority of people would say woah hold up let’s take look at what’s going on before tearing it down.
And of course that’s under the charitable assumption his actions weren’t malicious.
> Elon Musk is a smart salesman but that's about it. He has little deep knowledge in a lot of what he does.
No, I think it's the opposite — he's extremely knowledgeable about engineering and science [1], but quite hopeless at social things. If he was ignorant of technical stuff then SpaceX and Tesla would not have succeeded, and conversely if he was a good salesman he would have foreseen how badly his political actions would hurt Twitter and Tesla.
It's quite foolish to think someone is stupid or ignorant just because you don't agree with their politics.
1. see these quotes: https://x.com/yatharthmaan/status/2001313180644266478
He's been on public twitter calls before and his engineering knowledge is pathetic. I'm sorry but he's not knowledgeable about engineering or science, he's marketable about those things. People conflate the two often, but one will fall apart like a jenga tower the moment you push it even a little.
And a bunch of out of context quotes from folks that are either buddies with him or don't know shit is not convincing.
> Elon Musk is a smart salesman but that's about it.
How is it that most people here can see through it, but people in power can't?
> but people in power can't?
Why do you presume they can’t? Musk failed phenomenally to sell DOGE to the public, the President or the Congress. The expectation was that he’d have been better at that.
Can you tell me more? I was already familiar with The Butterfly Revolution and RAGE before the inauguration, but it sounds like most people weren't?
The way most of our governments are set up, the people in power typically arrive on the backs of the people with money. Elon Musk has a great deal of wealth, so everyone in power is going to listen to him.
Power respects power, ultimately. If you have wealth and power, those in power assume it was earned, because otherwise it's admitting that their own power could be through luck.
I will say that there are a few billionaires out there that do not get respect because everybody else assumes they "got lucky," but it's certainly not many billionaires. And those that people assume "got lucky" have mostly had terrible PR management on their way up, and not bothered to try to clean up their image. I have taken investment from one such billionaire that people would tell me "he got lucky," and though I don't think he got lucky to make his billions, he was also really terrible in his judgement and could not make the switch to investing even in similar industries successfully.
Money and power are all that matters. Musk is a dipshit but he's a rich and powerful dipshit and that's all that matters
"Why do companies hire consultancies?"
Because they don't have a permanent need to hire the expertise.
Very different idea.
Because "government efficiency" is an oxymoron?