iOS allows alternative browser engines in Japan

(developer.apple.com)

141 points | by eklavya 5 hours ago ago

69 comments

  • GaryBluto 6 minutes ago ago

    I'm surprised Apple haven't thrown in the towel and opened things up worldwide yet. It's only a matter of time until it becomes too confusing and problematic to try and run the same system relatively openly in one country and walled in another.

  • Wowfunhappy 2 hours ago ago

    I know this isn't new for Japan, but this requirement caught my eye:

    > Use memory-safe programming languages, or features that improve memory safety within other languages, within the alternative web browser engine at a minimum for all code that processes web content

    Would Apple themselves meet this requirement? Isn't WebKit C++? Of course, I'm not sure what would be considered "features that improve memory safety within other languages," that's kind of vague.

    • rafram 2 hours ago ago
      • hu3 2 hours ago ago

        Documentation to guide devs on safe usage of C++ is enough?

        So any language should be allowed as long as they instruct developers to be careful.

        • creato an hour ago ago

          I don't know if they do this, but those conventions could be enforced by a tool.

          • JimmyBiscuit 38 minutes ago ago

            Theres C++ in military airplanes, they just cut out 90% of the features: https://www.stroustrup.com/JSF-AV-rules.pdf

            And heres a nice video about it: https://youtu.be/Gv4sDL9Ljww?si=Z4riPMKAKcIKaU0s

          • concinds 43 minutes ago ago

            Yes, they do this, and it's really not an unreasonable requirement.

            • arcanemachiner 33 minutes ago ago

              Of course. It's just a coincidence that they're placing onerous restrictions on competi- I mean alternative browser engines. Restrictions which, of course, they're not obliged to follow themselves.

              I am sure that Apple will make no other efforts to impede others from unwalling the garden. That would be completely ridiculous, and frankly, un-Apple-esque.

              • concinds 28 minutes ago ago

                Both Chrome and Firefox are already compliant, so I don't see it as onerous, but the full context of the list is indeed an extremely loud and clear "FUCK YOU, WE OWN YOU" to regulators and other browser vendors.

  • rorylawless an hour ago ago

    My hope for laws such as the ones Japan and the EU enacted was that companies would see the writing on the wall and change their practices worldwide, if only for cost reasons (it presumably being more expensive to maintain multiple sets of rules.) However, these companies are now so large that they can choose to absorb any inefficiencies on a country-by-country basis.

    • OptionOfT 4 minutes ago ago

      At a hardware level it seemed to work. Looking at USB-C on iPhones for example.

      Software wise? Fail. EEA gets to disable start search in Windows 11. RoW does not. Interestingly EEA membership is decided at install time based on your selection, and is not changeable afterwards.

      iPhones on the other hand have a daemon running that checks your location. It's not based on where you set up the phone. So traveling from Europe to somewhere else can actually prevent you from updating apps that you got via an alt-store:

      https://www.macrumors.com/2024/03/06/alternative-ios-app-sto...

    • crazygringo 38 minutes ago ago

      There are many things Apple does that have anticompetitive motivations, but the browser engine doesn't seem like one of them. It's genuinely about security and battery life and standardization. So if cost was never the reason in the first place, cost is not going to be the reason to change.

      • toast0 4 minutes ago ago

        If browser F is worse at battery life than browser S, people will figure that out and adapt for themselves. If it's a big difference, it's self-evident; and small differences should show up in the battery life tool and computer press.

        Security-wise, the sandbox should limit damage to within the browser, and if it doesn't that's not the browser's fault. Maybe restrict access to password filling and such though / figure out how to offer an API to reduce the impact.

        Standardization, eh? Forcing Safari on iOS and not making it available on the mass market platforms (Android and Windows) makes it a pretty wonky standard. I guess there's a claim to be made for the embedded browsing engine, but IMHO, that should be an app developer choice.

      • greiskul 33 minutes ago ago

        It is literally done for strategic reasons to put a stranglehold on innovations on the web, so that there is no risk of web app technology developing to a point to threaten the dominance of native apps and the app store.

        Anybody that thinks otherwise is hopeless naive, Steve Jobs himself envisioned a web app future as the future of technology; before Apple found out the gold mine that the app store became.

        • crazygringo 8 minutes ago ago

          > to put a stranglehold on innovations on the web

          I think that's the hypothetical part, it's not reality. Safari continues to be a fully modern browser. It doesn't release new features quite as fast as Chrome, but it does generally adopt them.

          If Apple were attempting to put a "stranglehold on innovations on the web", Safari's feature set would look very different. But that's not what's happening.

          Like I said, Apple does lots of anticompetitive things. I'm not blind to what they do with the app store. I just don't think that the single browser engine policy is motivated by this, or has much effect on it, given how Apple does keep maintaining Safari as a modern browser.

        • otterley 8 minutes ago ago

          > Anybody that thinks otherwise is hopeless naive

          This is inappropriate. People can reasonably disagree without being insulting to each other.

          If you have concrete evidence that Apple is deliberately withholding some essential advancement in Safari or its support for Web standards so that it can sell more apps, by all means, cite it.

      • gumby271 21 minutes ago ago

        The web browser is the singular hole in Apple's grip over the user's device. While there are definitely arguments that can be made about security, I think it's naive to think that Apple is unaware of this and is operating on something other than protecting their app store fortune.

  • koolba an hour ago ago

    Does this mean we'll finally have "real" firefox with support for ublock origin on iOS?

    • modeless 42 minutes ago ago

      Apple is going to (mostly) obey the letter of the law but they will continue to resist strongly in every way they can. Onerous requirements, arbitrary restrictions, overzealous enforcement, and most of all bad APIs with limited capabilities and no workarounds for bugs.

      Shipping a good and complete browser engine on iOS will require more than just developers. You'll also need a team of lawyers to threaten and sue Apple to get their policy restrictions relaxed and APIs fixed.

      I doubt Mozilla or Google will be willing to spend the many developer-years and lawyer-years it will take to fully port every feature of a whole engine and properly maintain it in such a hostile environment, just for the Japan market. I expect to see some hobbyist-level ports but not something worth using for a long time. Unless other countries follow suit.

      • arcanemachiner 30 minutes ago ago

        > just for the Japan market

        Also the EU, no?

        • modeless 29 minutes ago ago

          Does the EU also require third party engines to be able to replace the web view in apps systemwide? Or does it only require that single standalone browser apps can use alternative engines?

          • concinds 2 minutes ago ago

            > Does the EU also require third party engines to be able to replace the system web view in apps systemwide?

            Yes.

    • Zak 23 minutes ago ago

      Probably not, at least not from Mozilla themselves. They cite onerous requirements and the difficulty of having to maintain different apps for different regions.

      https://www.theverge.com/2024/1/26/24052067/mozilla-apple-io...

    • ckcheng 12 minutes ago ago

      FYI. iOS Safari already supports uBlock Origin Lite. iOS Firefox can do the same anytime but it already has some tracking and content blocking built in too.

    • Longhanks 39 minutes ago ago

      Could’ve happened some time ago already in the EU, so there must be reasons for Firefox an Google not to ship their own engines (yet?).

    • __turbobrew__ 26 minutes ago ago

      uBO lite works pretty well on ios/safari for me.

  • concinds 40 minutes ago ago

    The separate-binary requirement makes it completely DOA, so they're still breaking the law. Deliberately.

    It specifically bans actions that make it unlikely for browsers to adopt alternative engines.

    And they mandate no sharing of login-state with any other app from the same developer, despite violating that themselves (Safari sync is turned on by default, no encryption by default). Funny. And they mandate blocking third-party cookies, great but completely inappropriate for an OS to impose.

  • gumby271 11 minutes ago ago

    It's so disappointing to be fed crumbs like this instead of seeing real consumer protection laws put in place. Let users install software on their computers outside of what the manufacturer permits, why focus on browsers and "app stores"?

  • iqandjoke 19 minutes ago ago

    So can people in Okinotorishima, Takeshima, Senkaku Islands use that alternative browser?

  • drnick1 2 hours ago ago

    2026 should be the year when every tech-minded person dumps Apple (and Google) for good and either starting running either a free Android OS (Graphene, Lineage or a couple of other variants) or a Linux phone.

    At this point, Apple and Google devices are nothing more than instruments of coercion and mass surveillance.

    • criddell 27 minutes ago ago

      Lectures and admonitions won’t change anything. People will move to Graphene and Linux when it’s better for them.

      Coercion and surveillance problems are pretty far down the list of complaints most people have with their personal devices.

    • airstrike 2 hours ago ago

      Unfortunately, I appreciate the deep integration between my phone and my laptop too much to drop either

      • drnick1 an hour ago ago

        I don't have Apple devices to compare, but I think KDE Connect can closely replicate this, entirely locally. I wouldn't be surprised if Apple's "deep integrations" rely on cloud components that are privacy-violating by design (even if Apple promises not to look at the data flowing through their servers).

        • cosmic_cheese an hour ago ago

          Most cross device stuff in the Apple world actually works via P2P Bluetooth and WiFi and functions without an internet connection or even a shared WiFi network. Mac and iDevice WiFi hardware is even designed with this in mind and is capable of maintaining P2P connections to other devices and a WiFi network simultaneously without rapidly switching between the two like many commodity WiFi cards have to.

    • websiteapi 2 hours ago ago

      UX is much worse imo on graphene compared to iOS

      • drnick1 2 hours ago ago

        I disagree. I had an iPhone in the past and find the minimalist Graphene UI refreshing. It's like comparing KDE on Arch to Windows 11 or MacOS. Nothing gets in your way or distracts you, the OS is what an OS is supposed to be, a platform for managing and launching apps.

        • cosmic_cheese an hour ago ago

          It’s definitely something that varies from person to person. I tried putting Graphene on a secondary Android device (an old Pixel 3XL) and compared to the stock ROM or more typical AOSP fork (e.g. LineageOS or Pixel Experience), I found it rather frustrating. I can’t imagine running it on my daily driver.

          Similarly with Linux, the sheer number of rough edges, papercuts, and quirks is still too high (regardless of if I’m using a big name DE or hyper minimal tiling WM or somewhere in between) for them to serve as my main desktop environment.

        • websiteapi 2 hours ago ago

          UX, not UI. perfect example is you copy something on your laptop and paste it on your phone. trivial on iDevice.

          • bdd8f1df777b an hour ago ago

            Trivial as in it works well sometimes and badly in other times with no explanation for why. That’s my experience anyway.

          • drnick1 an hour ago ago

            KDE connect over Bluetooth or WiFi seems ideal for this, so it's definitely possible. I am not sure how the iDevices deal with this, but I really don't want anything cloud-connected.

          • hu3 an hour ago ago

            this doesn't work sometimes. my wife complains frequently

          • bigyabai an hour ago ago

            KDE Connect is more reliable than Continuity Clipboard, in my experience.

          • Larrikin an hour ago ago

            Tailscale drop is better and works across devices.

            • websiteapi an hour ago ago

              tail scale drop is much more complicated than literally copying and pasting on iDevice. that's literally all you do, no setup, nothing and this is just one example for one type of action.

              https://tailscale.com/kb/1106/taildrop

              look at all of that, lol. iDevice is literally copy and paste any file or text. the end - you don't even have to set it up.

              • Larrikin 3 minutes ago ago

                How do I copy it from my Mac to my Android?

              • rendaw an hour ago ago

                This sounds like hyperbole. I've never used tailscale, but reading that doc:

                Installation: Install the tailscale client

                Sharing: Click on the share menu and select tailscale

                It's a beta feature so there's also a switch you have to flip for now.

                • websiteapi 43 minutes ago ago

                  you don't need to believe me. I use it daily. don't know why you're so defensive lol - it's our own opinion. fyi I didn't have to do anything for this to work (clipboard laptop to phone)

      • IlikeKitties an hour ago ago

        >UX is much worse imo on graphene compared to iOS

        Freedom and privacy exist on graphene.

    • EA-3167 38 minutes ago ago

      This is profoundly out of touch with how almost everyone who isn’t a particularly zealous member of certain movements lives their lives.

    • bigyabai an hour ago ago

      2026 should be the last year when anyone technical-minded comes around to the realization that Google/Apple are in the Fed's pocket. If you're making the switch in 2027 or 2028, it's probably too late for you.

  • threethirtytwo 2 hours ago ago

    Why only Japan? Seems like something forced them to in Japan.

  • ninkendo an hour ago ago

    The fact we still can't get this in the US is atrocious. They have already paid the cost to implement this for the EU and Japan, but simply don't allow it for US users because... spite, I guess? Horrible.

    It reminds me of when I asked for my account to be deleted from some online learning site (Udacity maybe?) And they're response was: "Nope, we only do that for European users." Like they went through all the effort of implementing a proper way to delete your data, but they just... don't do it if you're not in the right geographic area.

  • zb3 2 hours ago ago

    The title is misleading. "Allows" need to be in quotes - they did everything they could to make sure this won't change anything in practice. Screw Apple.

    • ninkendo an hour ago ago

      Could you elaborate? Other than the "Japan" requirement it seems legit?

      I guess the requirements are pretty onerous, but they all seem like table stakes for a browser these days (Firefox or Chrome should have no problem with them, for instance.)

    • catlikesshrimp 25 minutes ago ago

      They weren't going to title "Apple forced to allow alternative..."

      They are the ones allowing the alternatives because they are the gate keepers. They have "the keys"

  • shmerl 2 hours ago ago

    Did Japan decide to push proper competition laws?

    Time to force Apple to do it everywhere. Very long overdue.

    • signal11 2 hours ago ago

      I agree with the “enforce competition laws” sentiment, but in this context, enforced naively, all it’ll do is entrench the dominant browser engine, Blink, even more across the mobile ecosystem.

      I’m sure some devs will love this. But equally, some may worry about the monoculture implications.

      • concinds 15 minutes ago ago

        The "monoculture" has never been less of a threat. WPT.FYI is driving towards asymptotically perfect compatibility and behavior. And the real web, the long-tail of websites, is too chaotic to be controlled by any entity regardless of browser market share. Chrome can cook up whatever API they want, no website can be forced to adopt it. And if someone can't use some WebMIDI site on Safari, well, they can't complain, they didn't want that site to exist in the first place.

        It's simply not a good excuse to defend the iOS browser ban.

      • dekoidal 2 hours ago ago

        It hasn’t on Macs. Safari is still popular among non-tech folk

        • cosmic_cheese an hour ago ago

          It’s still got popularity within tech-inclined Mac/iOS circles too because it’s easier on the battery than Chrome (+derivatives) and Firefox. Some would like to switch but because neither Google nor Mozilla has much to lose for their browsers being battery hogs, relatively little engineering effort gets dedicated to improving efficiency compared to WebKit (which is similarly efficient under Linux in e.g. GNOME Web, proving it’s not purely first-party advantage).

        • crossroadsguy an hour ago ago

          That’s because Apple adds two extra legs to Safari on OS level and cuts both the legs of other browsers in a manner of speaking by rigging this comparison.

          • argsnd 12 minutes ago ago

            In what way do you think this is meaningfully occurring? I ask because I have not heard of Chrome or Firefox being inhibited on energy efficiency by platform limitations.

        • Spivak an hour ago ago

          I think the narrative is that once developers have the option to tell all of their users "we only support Chrome, just install Chrome" then any support for Safari will dry up.

          Unfortunately I don't think we will see if this is how it plays out until Apple has to allow other browsers globally.

          • leptons 8 minutes ago ago

            The reason Apple doesn't allow any other browser engines on iOS is due to them collecting up to 30% of purchases made through the apps from the app store. If a developer can do the same things with a capable web browser, then they won't need to create a native iOS app and that cuts into Apple's app revenue. So Apple purposely hobbles Safari so it doesn't have any advanced browser APIs for stuff like bluetooth or other APIs that apps have access to, forcing developers to create an app, where Apple can then cut into purchases made through the app.

            It has nothing to do with people no longer using Safari and Apple being sad about that. Other browsers can technically be installed on iOS, but the underlying browser engine is forced to be Safari, which lacks many APIs other web browsers could implement, reducing the need for a native app. It's purely Apple's anti-competitive greed that drives this situation. And the EU, Japan, and the US DOJ have noticed. So far only the EU and Japan have actually taken measures to force Apple to change this.

            Here's the entire DOJ lawsuit which includes many other instances of anti-competitive practices by Apple.

            https://www.justice.gov/archives/opa/media/1344546/dl?inline