For an idea as to how this gets translated into the reality on the ground here in Minneapolis this is an article on what’s going on from the main newspaper in the state.
> In the past week alone, ICE boxed in a Woodbury real estate agent recording their movements from his car, slammed him to the ground and detained him at the Whipple Federal Building near Fort Snelling for 10 hours. A 51-year-old teacher patrolling the Nokomis East community told the Star Tribune she was run off the road into a snowbank by ICE for laying on her horn. Officers shattered the car window of a woman attempting to drive past a raid in south Minneapolis to get to a doctor’s appointment nearby, then carried her through the street. Feds pushed an unidentified motorist through a red light into a busy intersection, reportedly fired projectiles at a pedestrian walking “too slowly” in a crosswalk and shoved Minneapolis City Council President Elliott Payne while he was observing their actions from a public sidewalk.
If all those things happened in Spain where I live, I'm 99% we'd have actual riots on the streets, together with a lot of other unpleasant-but-needed civilian action, until things got better, like we've done in the past (sometimes maybe went slightly overboard with it, but better than nothing).
Why are Americans so passive? You're literally transitioning into straight up authoritarianism, yet where are the riots? How are you not fighting back with more than whistles and blocking them in cars? Is there more stuff actually happening on the ground, but there simply isn't any videos of it, or are people really this passive in the land of the free?
Are people inside the country not getting the same news we're getting on the outside? Are you not witnessing your government carrying out extra-judicial murders and then being protected by that same government? I'm really lost trying to understand how the average person (like you reading this) isn't out on the streets trying to defend what I thought your country was all about.
Americans have had 100 years of stable government and in the past political solutions have eventually been enacted. The Civil Rights bill was passed. Nixon pulled out of Vietnam. I think a lot of people are still expecting sanity to return. I hope they're right.
This is anecdotal, America is geographically quite large. For a lot of people, where these events are happening are more than a days drive away (10 hours or more), it's not happening "here".
A lot of people here _enjoy_ the authoritarianism, judging by the votes, the voter turnout, and the private discussions I've had with my neighbors. They believe this is good for the country and that there'll be more opportunities for their kids.
A lot of other people are holding out for the midterm elections, to see if the will of the majority shifts, because otherwise its risks open civil war. And maybe just a touch of American exceptionalism—this can't actually be happening here, it'll all blow over—and distrust in the story that the media is feeding them is accurate.
And some are just fatalistic, this isn't really a surprising turn of events. America has been creeping toward this for more than a few decades, since Regan at the very least.
I think it's something different than "Americans are passive" - rather, many of them/us perceive the context of what you're seeing very differently. I can share some of this perspective though I don't insist it's the only way to feel.
1. Americans on the ground are clearly feeling the effects of illegal immigration. As an example: a an African American janitor in our kids' school voted republican in 2024 for the first time in his life, because the park in his Brooklyn neighborhood has become a shanty town and he can't work out there. In that election we've seen nearly every demographic move more republican than before, and I think this is the key issue for them.
2. In that context, when ICE does something, even when we don't like it, people can understand it in the context of a larger problem they/we want solved. When you perceive "passivity" - it's because you come in from a perspective of not wanting the underlying problem solved which is fine, but it's different for people who like "what" is happening even if not "how" it's happening.
3. There are plenty of people protesting and violently rioting if that's what they feel like.
I don’t think data supports this. Polling has shown a lot of people who voted Republican in 2024 (Latinos especially) have snapped back again already, at least partially because of what ICE is doing.
ICE are terrorizing a city and its residents no matter what their immigration status is. Even someone who strongly wishes to curb illegal immigration should have a problem with that.
What people voted for 14 months ago and how ICE is being used are two different things. Polling shows a majority of Americans do not support how ICE is behaving and do not feel like it is making them safer. There are not plenty of people "violently rioting" at this point. Blowing whistles and yelling at federal agents isn't rioting. If you want to see what violent riots look like, see the Iranian footage.
> it's because you come in from a perspective of not wanting the underlying problem solved
Where is this assumption coming from? Of course I don't want people to break the laws of the country or immigrate illegally, I never argued for that either.
What I don't understand, if Obama managed to throw out more illegals than Trump did for the same duration of time, yet with a lot less chaos and bloodshed, and you truly want less illegal immigrants, should you favor a more peaceful and efficient process? Instead of a more violent and less efficient process?
We had nationwide riots for months back in 2020 over a police officer murdering a suspect, and that resulted in approximately zero actual political change. During the recent shutdown over the budget, we had one of the largest protests in the country’s history and massive shifts towards the opposition in elections followed by them immediately folding in exchange for essentially nothing.
The political class is very well insulated from the popular will in this country, and I fear we may be nearing the boiling point.
> American life is so much more distributed than European life.
It isn't though, Google Maps estimate going West>East coast in the US to take 44 hours (pure driving without stops), and puts going from the South of Spain to the North of Sweden to take 50 hours, more or less the same.
Then Europe is a bunch of countries, most of them speaking different languages, with way more difference in culture than the states of the US. I'm not sure it matters though, it really isn't relevant, but probably the wrong thing to bring up regardless, when the reality looks the opposite than you seem to think.
FWIW, when the (last) civil war in Spain happened, you had volunteer civilians coming from Sweden (among other countries) to defend their ideals, even if it wasn't their fight, completely different culture and language. But if you care about something bigger than yourself, then you act.
"My country is large" isn't an excuse to not stand up against tyranny, not sure in what world it would be.
The whole "just barely surviving financially" sucks though, especially considering the poor labor movements and almost non-existing union support, and poor grassroot organization. It always felt weird and artificially suppressed, but without those thing, it certainly seems easier to take over an entire country. Hope others learned their lessons with this.
> Then Europe is a bunch of countries, most of them speaking different languages, with way more difference in culture than the states of the US. I'm not sure it matters though, it really isn't relevant, but probably the wrong thing to bring up regardless, when the reality looks the opposite than you seem to think.
There's certainly more cultural similarity across the US, but that doesn't mean there isn't a sense of emotional and geographic distance. Remember that the typical riot participant is not a political theorist who has some deep theory of how discharging their duty will enact change, just an average guy who's mad as hell about what's happening and not going to take it anymore.
A broad answer: because America is more violent. The ICE officers are armed and absolutely will use their weapons if given half a chance to. Maybe I’m wrong but I don’t think any rioters in countries like Spain go to a protest with a bet real chance on their minds that they might die.
> Maybe I’m wrong but I don’t think any rioters in countries like Spain go to a protest with a bet real chance on their minds that they might die.
That's the thing, they do, and have in the past too. Some might even recall riots ~70 years ago that kind of spiraled out of control and led to a civil war.
Looking at what's happening in Iran as we speak might be a good idea as well, where they've had enough, know that there is a good chance of their regime literally executing them on the spot, yet they're brave enough to continue fighting, because they realize what's at stake, and have run out of other options.
> The ICE officers are armed and absolutely will use their weapons if given half a chance to
So this was the whole point with the 2nd amendment right, that when/if the government repress you in that way, you have weapons to fight back? Or am I misunderstanding what that part is/was about?
Americans are much more comfy than Iranians are though. As much as Americans might dislike what's going on, they're not fighting got their own survival.
Democracy, authoritarianism are all abstract and vague concepts
But then I still hear people say that this is what the 2nd amendment is for... Meanwhile, to make sure they have the heavier weapons, law enforcement goes absolutely bananas on what they carry.
The second amendment was written in a time when a firearm was a musket.
This is chicken-or-the-egg reasoning. Maybe the reason such violent behavior is unthinkable by a hypothetical Spanish LEO is because past protest has been so strong?
My counter-hypothesis is that America has never really known authoritarianism, religious wars, etc., so Americans are, on average, more supportive of Authority.
Yeah, I think your last point is a good one and something to consider too. Large part of our perspectives are shaped by what we've experienced, and what our predecessors experienced, and if you don't have the experience of walking through mass-graves created by the government executing dissidents, you don't have a frame of reference for that being a possibility.
So, from my perspective, there were in fact a number of "religious wars", but the folks who lost all ended up on reservations or murdered and in mass graves. I mean 650K folks died in the mid 19th century in a single 5-year war. And that's not counting how we might code the Atlantic slave trade or the post-reconstruction violence, or labor violence into that history.
As a person who has been involved with an riot in a small town, I think that, in the deep unconscious of most folks in the US, is something structure:
"well, there wasn't violence in the 19th and early 20th and mid 20th and late 20thC century... well okay, there was violence but they put folks who were resisting into mass graves or incarceration and everyone was better off for it".
That is, consider that the obverse of your claim might be true:
the violence committed by the US has been so totalizing that it's victims have never even counted as victims and that holocaust so complete that it only exists in the subconscious of white US citizens.
I find that idea to be a very easy way to understand why white folks are so passive and pro-authority.
sure. but to me it seems like the there was this vain hope that somehow we could thread the needle. that if we would accept to unjustice and stick it out, that eventually the courts and electoral process would be robust enough. that escalation would just lead to where we've already gotten, where peaceful protestors are being killed for 'disrepect'. that somehow pointing out all the obvious falsehood and gaslighting would be enough to convince people that this was going sideways. this was always going to end in martial law, but our complacency is generational.
- The American political system has been very successful in telling its people that the only acceptable way to show discontent and enact change is by voting on elections.
- Lots of people are okay with it because it can only happen to the "bad guys", and why would it ever happen to them since they're the "good guys"... right?
> The American political system has been very successful in telling its people that the only acceptable way to show discontent and enact change is by voting on elections.
Has it? Because I recall a bunch of people gathering in the wrong building on Jan 6
... yet still tens of millions of eligible voters don't even bother
the country is very low-density, there's no one obvious point to protest (there was Occupy Wall Street... and then the Seattle TAZ and .... that's it, oh and the Capitol January 6th)
the country has a lot of experience "managing" internal unpleasantry, see the time leading up to the civil war, and then the reconstruction, and then there was a lull as the innovation in racism led to legalized economic racism (the usual walking while black "crimes", vagrancy laws, etc), and then the civil rights era, with the riots, and since then police brutality is used as a substitute to training and funding
Because it’s cold? Here in Minnesota it’s 17F / -7C. Factoring in the wind chill it feels like 7F / -14C.
There are other reasons too of course (geography, lack of urban density, distrust of news, apathy, etc etc) but I think the weather is a definite factor right now.
> Because I have a kid to take care of. A job I need to keep, and a way of life I'd like to maintain.
Exactly, so why not go out on the streets and actually defend those things then? Currently your (presumed) inaction will cause those to be harmed, you're not "saving those" by saying and doing nothing, you're effectively giving them away if you don't actively protect them.
Are any of those things threatened and need defending?
Assuming OP isn’t an illegal alien or attempting to impede federal law enforcement, they’re fine.
Assuming his job isn’t reliant on employing or generating revenue from illegal aliens, also fine.
Way of life: America had immigration laws since 1875 - his great great grandparents probably lived under more onerous immigration regulation (Chinese Exclusion Act, etc) than modern Americans and immigrants live with. Also fine.
> Are any of those things threatened and need defending?
If you don't think authoritarianism or fascism actually has a way of harming those things, then no, I guess not.
I think for most people who had to learn about these things in school growing up, for like 7 years or something, together with grandparents who experienced these things for themselves, it's pretty clear what's happening, but without actually having that perspective, I could understand it feels like "What is everyone so upset about? Doesn't seem so bad".
Because actually defending those things requires violence and I shy away from that. Sitting on the sidelines and protesting doesn't do a damn thing. It just makes the maga people laugh harder. Case in point: our own president sharing an AI video of himself wearing a crown and dumping feces on protestors.
Fair, avoiding violence is usually not the way to go, so fair point.
Protesting does do something though, the very least showing other people a direction to go in, to at least show something. It's hard to argue it does nothing, because images and videos do end up on social media and the news, and you really need the rest of the population on your side, if you actually want to change stuff.
You know what actually doesn't do a damn thing? Not doing a damn thing. Literally anything is better than nothing, just showing support is better than nothing. Talking about it is better than nothing.
> You know what actually doesn't do a damn thing? Not doing a damn thing. Literally anything is better than nothing, just showing support is better than nothing. Talking about it is better than nothing.
That's fair. And I'm talking about it right now and everywhere else I can in safe ways.
As far as protesting goes, I agree with you. It is better than nothing. It does help show people they're not alone. But as I said mentioned, this isn't happening where I live. It would literally take me days to travel to Milwaukee or another hotbed. Some people are stronger than me and take time off and make other sacrifices to attend rallies, and I admire those people, but it's not feasible for me. Or I suppose a more truthful way of saying it is it's not worth it for me because of the sacrifices I'd have to make just for the chance of getting hurt or being added to a list.
If nothing else, thank you for sharing your honest perspective, I appreciate it :)
> Or I suppose a more truthful way of saying it is it's not worth it for me because of the sacrifices I'd have to make just for the chance of getting hurt or being added to a list.
It's really sad to hear that the chilling effect is working so effectively. I of course understand why you make the choice you make, that's not strange, but that they managed to turn your society into this is nothing but sad to hear.
What physical government oppression have I missed now? I'm not trying to claim Spain is perfect, because it really isn't, especially considering "freedom of speech" (depending on your perspective of it) and some other things Americans might take for granted.
But I'd say that usually when there are large issues impacting large parts of the population, then you can be pretty sure that there will be country-wide protests against it, many times with smaller violent elements, because people here make their opinions and feelings known.
So you don't do anything because you have a job you need to keep and a kid to take care of, but you're perfectly okay with moving to a completely different country on short notice?
Yes because one of those can get my face smashed in by a baton. Moving is a far safer option for my family.
Call it selfish if you want (hell, I'd even agree with you) but my priority is my family and my life. This idea that I have to care about "my country" is patriotic BS pounded into us to make it more likely to join the army.
The US, for better or worse, isn't a cohesive country of people interested in a collective, but a smash and grab of economic gains sourced from those who are forced to live in it and cannot flee to developed countries. You come to it, or stay in it, to make more income you would in developed countries at the detriment of everyone else.
Whether you believe the economic human factory farm that is the US is worth saving or preserving will be a function of your lived experience and mental model. "What are you optimizing for?"
Don’t forget half the population (within polling MOE) supports this, believing ICE/ removal operations are making America safer by enforcing our existing, long standing immigration laws.
Obstructing feds in those operations, rioting outside government buildings, and driving cars at uniformed officers aren’t going to net you a ton of sympathy with people supporting law enforcement actions.
You should read James Baldwin. Or read up on the debates post revolutionary war in the United States about the French revolution.
The truth is the land of the free has always been quite conservative. Which frankly, is true of most societies. In many ways that's what a society is.
Worse still, ICE stomping people out in the street is what freedom means to a vast swath of Americans. The rest are scared and leaderless and let down by an opposition that betrays their trust at every turn.
And yes Europeans keep telling Americans how to protest, but really they are little better. "Far right" candidates are already projecting big wins in the UK today. To say nothing of the victories far right parties have already secured in Europe. Spain is more familiar with blatant facisim and totalitarianism than Americans are. So idk... imo Europeans really pat themselves on the back too much... what would you do?
Provoking a riot is of questionable value anyway when he won a pretty convincing national victory at the polls just a year ago... no one has any answers as far as I can see, only empty expressions of anger... protest harder means what? I think a better start would be a coherent, defensible list of demands than anyone from a governor to a street activist can convey intelligently. Then you can try to enforce it.
But ultimately you can't muster more force than the state. If that is your only suggestion then it's a fruitless one.
Yep, in all EU countries, this would lead to country wide protests with the usual result being the fall of the government and new elections. Seems like the US is missing this element of democracy.
The ICE agents encounter protesters acting within legal bounds often. These people stay behind lines, do not touch the ICE agents, do not block ICE vehicles, etc. These people do not get much attention from ICE.
The people encountering forceful actions from ICE are doing something more. They are driving cars at federal agents, using their cars as moveable roadblocks, throwing objects at federal agents, etc. I find it hard to believe that any law enforcement agents anywhere would tolerate these actions without similar response.
But I may be wrong. If you live someplace where cops will let you block their cars, or throw things at them, etc please do let us know. I’d be interested to see how that works.
Decades of copaganda paired with police brutality. A fairly large portion of americans view anyone with a badge as "the good guy" by default.
But, I think people are also fearful about what happens after the riots start. Nobody is excited about Trump using a riot as an excuse to declare martial law and deploy the military everywhere. There's still some hope that cities and states will step up and do their job. These ICE agents can and should be prosecuted.
> Are people inside the country not getting the same news we're getting on the outside?
They aren't. And unfortunately a LOT of US media is sanewashing. We have dedicated channels like fox news which are basically framing everything as "violent protesters attacking the police for trying to arrest bad guys". But even centrist and slightly left mainstream media is bending over backwards to give excuses and "both sides" this. Doing things like using a lot of passive language or just not reporting on the raids all together. You basically need to be online or tuned in to alternative media to learn about this stuff.
There's also the very simple and real fact that fascists already have the power. People are scared. There's about 30% of the citizenship who could literally drive a car through a protest or open up fire who'd be completely protected by the state for those actions. Most of the people that'd do that are already employed by ICE.
To be fair, Minneapolis is raising hell and has been for the last week. There have been many protests in other cities as well.
I would also say that Trump and his cronies would absolutely love if this boils over into a violent riot. That would give them permission to double down.
I keep hearing this idea that boiling over lets them double down, but at the same time, it is not acceptable to let them keep doing what they do. Once the government starts using physical violence against the people and openly violating constitutional law, there is no choice, but to push back.
But that pushback can look different. Personally, I think that needs to be a massive general strike across every major city.
The government is built around a monopoly on violence - that’s kind of the point.
Claiming that government using violence to enforce the law and function of the government is some redline seems a bit silly and incompatible with any approach to government outside anarchism.
> Personally, I think that needs to be a massive general strike across every major city.
Yes, this tends to be really effective, especially when you're fighting the upper-class, which is more or less what's happening here as far as I can tell.
Get all the cleaners, cooks, hotel workers and other "servants" to strike, pool up to fund a salary-light for them while they strike, and you'll see changes quickly as the upper-class can no longer enjoy their status.
Totally fine with general strikes, particularly for the business that are accommodating and providing logistical services for ICE. Very much opposed to shooting wars. We don't have the firepower or the political power (yet).
Americans aren't passive: we actively did this. The rioters are in the masks and uniforms. We went so far out of our way to arrive at this godforsaken idiot collapse.
Minneapolis mayor told protestors to remain peaceful. The Democrats always want to follow the rules even when the other side has abandoned them. To be fair to Mayor Frye though, Trump wants to provoke rioting to invoke the Insurrection Act, which he threatened to do today the Democratic officials don't fall in line. So there is that.
First they came for the Communists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Communist
Then they came for the Socialists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Socialist
Then they came for the trade unionists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a trade unionist
Then they came for the Jews
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Jew
Then they came for me
And there was no one left
To speak out for me
First they passed the naturalization act of 1790
And I did not speak out
Because we’ve been regulating and enforcing the concept of citizenship for 230 years
Then they passed the immigration act of 1891
And I did not speak out
Because a sovereign state needs control over its borders, immigration, and may want to exclude criminals or those with communicable diseases
Then President Obama deported over 3 million people
And I did not speak out
Because it wasn’t Trump doing it
Then President Trump rescinded Temporary Protective Status
And I did not speak out
Because I understood what the word temporary means
spain isn’t a great example here. it has some of the most racist fans football has ever seen and yet there’s no action. only italy probably compares. if there was a government agency going after black and brown people (ie non-white) i wouldn’t bet on the spanish population to come to their rescue. lamine yamal, a young footballer of moroccan descent hasn’t been spared the vitriol of the spanish hooligans even though he was top 3 best player at the recent euro (where he helped spain to victory).
point being, given that ice is going after non-whites and is getting by, a spanish ice will get by too, with probably more ease.
Sad as it is, I think Spain only barely makes it into the top 10 on the UEFA racism ranking. Serbia, Hungary and Israel are probably the top contenders, with Albania and Poland completing the top 5.
I'm not sure that's even in the same class of issues as what's happening in the US and frankly, a bit surprising to hear. Have you seen/been with ultras in the Nordics? Even been to derbies played in Copa Libertadores? Both of those I'd immediately rank as way more violent than what we see here in Spain.
I've read multiple comparisons between US groups like Patriot Front and the Proud Boys and hooliganism in terms of the culture and demographics. Similar backgrounds, similar attitudes, similar behaviors (get smashed, go start fights). It's just more overtly political here rather than being organized around a sports fandom.
A pervasive "Someone needs to do something!!!" attitude is why. Americans will forever wait for the school principal to come and get everyone into trouble
There is a lot of direct action happening right now in Minneapolis, with people keeping watch on every block. I agree this level of organizing should be happening nationwide.
Fixed like Putin is "fixing" his borders through immoral violence, murder, oppression, ...? (Trump's regime are mimicking it well.) Or do you mean something else?
Are you saying USA, in the majority, is still imperialist? Is still racist? Is still white supremacist?
I've seen the live footage from both civilians and ICE from the area, this is a very one-sided article and outlook. The reality on the ground is that people aren't respecting the federal LEO's and deserve this.
Yes but if shown proof would it change your mind about anything? Are you against federal law enforcement covering their faces, beating and detaining people illegally?
A member of Governor Walz’s staff is the publisher of that newspaper.
Steve Grove has been the CEO and Publisher of the Minnesota Star Tribune since April 2023. Prior to that, he served as Commissioner of the Minnesota Department of Employment and Economic Development (DEED)—a cabinet-level position—under Governor Walz from 2019 until early 2023. Walz appointed him to that role, and Grove's departure from state government was publicly congratulated by Walz when he transitioned to the newspaper.
If you work for Palantir and if you work on these systems: You have blood on your hands. You know that it's not right what is happening on the ground right now. Do something.
I don’t think it’s really this simple. Palantir is a major government contractor that enables it to be more tech savvy. It’s embedded through hundreds of teams / agencies. You can’t remain a credible partner if you play morality police on every workflow. Palantir has worked through multiple administrations of both parties and have to support whoever is in power to have a seat at the table.
Ultimately the question is just: would you prefer to have a competent or incompetent government?
Otherwise you can agree or disagree with government policies, but that shouldn’t be directed at tech vendors, it should be directed at politicians and people in government / at the voting booth.
Haha, true, although I meant competent from a tech perspective. The reason Palantir is even in the building is because the government is notoriously bad at technology.
> 3. Are more worried about their next paycheck and having bad things happen to them related to not paying rent.
i feel like a broken record: anyone with a resume good enough for Palantir would have no problem finding work for another company/public sector employer. but they stay.
In a thread last year a Palantir employee said most of them were either Indian, East Asians, or laid off and/or unemployable White males. Good luck guilt-tripping any of them.
Note: I'm not American, nor White/WASP, nor Asian.
Yes, Palantir folks have self selected for the first two over and over - anyone working there for many years now is completely blacklisted from anything I touch, when someone advertises ex-Palantir folks in the job description I know I can safely avoid that company forever.
The unfortunate converse is there are plenty of other software companies looking for that .gov money that would pick these less than scrupulous employees right up.
Same. I would never allow anyone who has Palantir on their resume to be hired in any company I have influence over. They are the brownshirts of the tech industry, worse even than the people poisoning children's minds at Meta.
That's not my experience from the time I worked for Google. The popular sentiment was actually "We now work for a company that dropped 'don't be evil' and that sucks". See Manu Cornet comics - they are a pretty good reflection of the sentiment I'm talking about, a random example https://goomics.net/387
And it's not like everyone just complained for moral posturing and then continued to wipe the tears of disgust with wads of cash. Many people who left also mentioned the ethics part as why they left.
Due to background, I know a lot of people who work at google, and while many of them will give lipservice to ethical concerns, none of them have made any changes at all because, and this is an exact quote, "the money is too good."
The vast majority are probably shamefully exploited h1b coolies who would be left to wallow in cow excrement back in their own countries were it not for anti-labor big business friendly policies loved by the liberals who imported them to do the dirty work non-STEM capable persons are too lazy or ignorant to do themselves. /s (sarcasm off) :)
It’s hard to prove without knowing the app devs, but for points 1 & maybe 2, we can look at whether Americans think the raids are justified.
28% of them think they are [0]. It wouldn’t be out of the realm of possibility that the devs would be part of that number
Edit: it looks like the poll it’s for the recent incident of the woman who was shot - my mistake. Then I would assume the number for the raids themselves is higher
> JP Doherty did not want to sign the email. But he knew he didn’t have a choice. His son, Rhys, was scheduled to have strabismus surgery in January, correcting an eye issue that made it difficult for him to walk on his own. The procedure cost $10,000 out of pocket. Doherty discussed the decision with his wife, and while she wanted him to be able to quit, they both knew the kids needed his health insurance. [0]
When we stop tying our health insurance to our employment, we'll see a drastic uptick in people starting their own businesses. Working at company Z because their health insurance is fully paid for by the employer vs working at company Y where it costs you 1,400 a month for HDHP but the salaries are the same shouldn't be a thing
A Palantir rep was supporting one of our exercises late last summer, and he said "Knowing what I know about how the military is going all-in on Maven....I recommend buying Palantir stock."
I picked up a few shares, but I haven't checked if Palantir's growth has been unique or part of a general military-industrial complex melt-up.
Man, back when I was doing Big Consulting (including gov't/defense) I had to affirmatively declare every year to Legal that I wasn't directing any investment purchases or doing anything that could be construed as improper use of nonpublic knowledge. And now Palantir reps just out here pushing insider trading tips like it's nothing, smdh.
Nah, free blood money was when my General Dynamics shares went from $60->$120, then did a stock split and went from $60-> ~$100. I think that was in....2005? The Stryker (a GD product) was coming into service in Iraq, which drove my purchasing decision. I was an E-4 in Korea at the time and thought I was a defense stock-picking genius.
I had to pull out of US stocks/market completely last year after I felt dirty just having money in a country sliding into authoritarianism. Interesting where different people draw different lines :)
Palantir does not work in a vacuum - it requires other technology, platforms and systems to operate and succeed - many of which are designed and maintained by the users of Hacker News.
Certainly you must be aware that there are not just binary values of morality in life. The obvious answer is yes they are stained, as we all are through our participation in various systems, but with vastly varying amounts.
Is the manufacturer of the bomb responsible for when Israel drops it on a family home in Gaza? Yes. Is it the same responsibility as the general who gave the order? No. Is it the same as the pilot who followed the order? No.
Does that make it useless to hold people accountable? Of course not.
Respectfully, this is cheap cope. The bomb maker didn't know when he made the bomb, maybe. Now he knows, as do all the people turning the gears on this meat grinder, including a bunch of people here.
If you value your comfy life over the well being of others and the future of not only the country, but without an ounce of hyperbole, the human race, then keep your head down. If you don't, fuckin DO SOMETHING.
You know all those times you've said or heard others say "well if I was in Germany in the 30's...." well, guess what, games fuckin real now. So act like the person you want to be.
>If you value your comfy life over the well being of others and the future of not only the country
For people who think borders are just lines, our country as geography doesn't even exist. It's just lines. For people who think that all people are the same, everywhere, and deserve to go where they please, our country as a people doesn't exist either.
So if that's your conception of a country, why should I care about it at all? It's just a random place I happened to be born, and its disloyalty to me outweighs any I might show it. I inherited a house jointly with the rest of you, and you keep letting squatters live here for free. Once they're here, you screech if anyone tries to evict them. If I complain about them punching holes in the drywall and shitting in the kitchen sink, you tell me I'm racist. Whatever else, you and I are incompatible, and I am out of options.
Palantir is built explicitly for surveillance, in a way the other companies you listed are not. There is no comparison here. It's like saying the City of Minneapolis is complicit because they maintain the roads ICE is driving on.
Not really. Palantir is data integration and analysis software that in some cases (like ICE) can be used for surveillance. There are also thousands of commercial clients who use Palantir for completely non surveillance workflows, as well as many other government teams who use Palantir for non surveillance things. This is all public information.
Yes, this is how market economy works. For every organization doing horrible things, literally everyone is a small number of payment-handshakes from it.
No, it doesn't mean that "mr gotcha"[1] argument is valid. You don't have to isolate yourself from society Kaczynski-style to either criticize society or to do something smaller (like choosing who you work for).
Palantir does a ton of customization and consulting for specific use cases. This isn't like Microsoft Excel being used to track uranium enrichment in Iran, it is a direct, explicit part of their business.
Even if you do nothing else of impact in your life, you can stop defending the bad guys.
The rage should be dependent on the contribution. You mention a third party software vendor who produces tools that aren't even "dual-use" with respect to the abuse by ICE, they are specifically tailored. That's not the same as, say, providing electricity to them.
They are dual use. Palantir creates platforms (Foundry, Gotham) which are used by ICE but also thousands of other companies. Are you saying that just because ICE tailors these platforms to their workflows they’re not dual use? That feels akin to saying some super complicated excel workflow used by a company means excel is not dual use.
> If you work in technology, you are part of this force, whether you like it or not.
Disappointing to see you downvoted. I agree with this partially, but only because I think it applies more broadly.
I work in tech (although not in Big Tech/Mag 7/FAANG/whatever they're called now), and I feel quite acutely that anyone in the field is culpable in part for the enabling the absolutely massive dump that the capital-adjacent class is taking on the world to have their power play fantasies play out.
To the extent that I've started apologising on behalf of the field/profession to non-technical folks when they complain about yet another dark pattern/"growth hack" designed to steal their attention and money.
The US gov (including ICE) uses all of Microsoft Office for coordination and planning: email, spreadsheets, powerpoint, document generation, etc. Would you say Microsoft employees have blood on their hands too? If not, what makes Microsoft different?
> Palantir is working on a tool for Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) that populates a map with potential deportation targets, brings up a dossier on each person, and provides a “confidence score” on the person’s current address
So essentially, the relevant app here is custom built in order to help ICE raids.
That's substantially different from generic office tech where ICE happen to be one of millions of users.
You're going to have to explain to me why it's a bad thing or immoral for the government to be aware of where immigrants who legally need to be deported live.
That’s not an answer. Please explain why it’s a bad thing that Palantir had produced an application that shows ICE agents the probable addresses of people they’re supposed to deport along with information about them.
If the answer is “I don’t believe in immigration law and the government should not enforce it regardless of what people vote for”, that’s a completely acceptable answer.
Because these systems are not only used on illegal immigrants. To give you a very clear example: a US citizen was murdered without any due process a few days ago by ICE.
Because surveilling people -- PEOPLE, not citizens -- without probable cause is a violation of the US constitution?
It is a bad thing because it leads to innocent people being brutalized, it's a violation of the constitution, it's very clearly the primary tool of an increasingly authoritarian government?
I wasn't answering you. I was calling out the vicious sleight of hand where you reduce what ICE is doing to the innocently-sounding "immigrants who legally need to be deported".
Considering that Microsoft is also providing services to the Israeli government with the explicit intent of storing and cataloging all of the phone calls made by Palestinian citizens so that they can be analyzed by AI for potential bombing targets...yes I would say Microsoft also has blood on their hands. I wouldn't be surprised to learn they have deep partnerships with Palantir for compute services.
Yes, absolutely. These are criminal scum, on par with pedos. Just look at how they are helping a people getting wiped out from their own territory in the Middle East.
1. He's white and lives in a blue state. Doesn't affect him. Oh, and money.
2. The attention on Palantir and their customers makes his stock and options go up. He's happy, because money.
3. His GOP-worshipping parents get to brag to their GOP-worshipping friends that their son is helping God's Gift to Humanity - Donald Trump. And making bank while doing it.
4. He believes that Palantir is doing good work, and that's the end of it. He believes himself to be a genuinely good guy, so if he's doing something, it must be good.
In general, if you're working for Palantir, you're unlikely to find yourself in the right side of history. Whenever you hear of tech being used for questionable purposes, Palantir seems to have their fingers deep in the pie.
That's a pretty broad generalization, but OK I'll bite.
- I think Yarvin has a lot of good points. No one should be ashamed to admit the truth of a matter. I can't stand his voice, I think he has annoying mannerisms, but nonetheless the man has a point and I'm not ashamed (especially by unknown and strange online personas) to say so.
- Palantir is objectively a profitable job. I've learned a lot here and the people I work with are brilliant.
- I don't think I have "blood on my hands" and rather instead think that people who use that tactic are resorting to strange emotional manipulation in place of a salient argument.
Let's be honest, simply conjecturing that someone ascribes to a political view isn't discourse. It's a potshot. You're assuming that anyone who reads your comment and leans in your direction is going to agree and vote with you. This is literally the lowest and cheapest form of engagement. It's also the most self serving. It does nothing to advance the conversation or prove your point.
Most importantly, this is the exact type of behavior that is furthering political polarization and discouraging actual discourse.
Can you describe at what point someone would “have blood on their hands” in your view?
The problem in my mind is that these systems are exclusively in service of dishonesty. ICE is clearly being used to further political ends. If it were actually trying to stem immigration it wouldn’t concentrate its officers in a state with one of the lowest rates of illegal immigrants.
Are you saying you agree with that cause or that you bear no responsibility?
It makes perfect sense to concentrate law enforcement in a state that is in defiance. Even if the absolute numbers are low, the state cannot back down from enforcing the law because some people are resisting. Otherwise you invite anyone to disregard any law they don’t like. The state won’t allow this and the only way to overcome this is either to change the law or toss out the government, and only one options is realistic. And btw I am against deportations of people who have committed no felonies unrelated to immigration.
I think most people involved in protests would not characterize the thing they are resisting as merely "law enforcement". What they are experiencing is an occupation by a politically weaponized paramilitary organization which is going door-to-door in their neighborhoods wearing masks, wielding ARs, yelling at people and brutalizing them. How do you think you would react if this was taking place in your community?
Honest-to-God truthfully, reading Moldbug is what made me realize the speciousness of pure rightism and ushered my journey from a rightist-axiomatic "Libertarian" / ancap to a centrist-qualitative libertarian-without-labels that sees left and right thinking as both necessary parts of a complete whole. But YMMV of course!
Meh, I blame social media specifically and media generally for the state of our country. Why call out just Palantir. The US, maybe the world, would be better off if companies like Meta (and others) didn't exist....
I wonder how he feels about what the administration is doing and how his own work is directly helping them. Surely he is aware of all of the supremacist rhetoric coming from the official Twitter accounts of various government agencies or Elon Musk or Stephen Miller. Surely he has seen the kind of racist abuse that Vivek Ramaswami endured on Twitter, which led to him recently quitting social media.
Doesn’t he see how all of this is going to come for people like himself next?
Wouldn’t it be even more fair to say that the people who allowed or even encouraged illegal immigration have blood on their hands because they know what they were doing and how the government would have to respond under the law? If we are going to use the line of reasoning you suggest then this should easily be on the table also.
People like... Donald Trump, prominent employer of illegal labor for decades?
If you want to go after prominent employers of illegal labor (and others who profit from it) I shan't shed a tear. But that doesn't seem to be what's happening.
The Palantro CEO, Alex Karp, is on the record that he approves of what the president is doing in regards to immigration enforcement and the striking of boats in international waters.
And in 2016 he was a Clinton supporter and a self described progressive. Vance was also a never trumper by his own admission.
It’s quite clear to me that these elites are just grabbing power by any means necessary. It won’t end after Trump. He’s just providing the cover in the current moment.
I'm not sure why the down votes, I'm not being glib.
Go read the work of historians who study this. The transitions in Russia, Hungary, etc are well documented. There is a pretty solid consensus understanding of the dynamics, the typical playbook, etc.
I've been on the receiving end of federal enforcement (DOJ, high-profile "cybercrime"). When they want you, they don't need a confidence score. There is no quota—they take time to build a case. The existence of these tools tells you this isn't targeted enforcement, it's industrial-scale population processing dressed up in an algorithm.
Worth reminding everyone in the EU and UK that this is not a 'them' problem.
Palantir is the main software vendor for Europol. Equally pretty much all the 1984 proposals for age or id online verification that are being massaged into existence (both in the UK and pushed by the European Commission) have their fingers all over them.
They sell pre-crime and opinion control to our democratic leaders and apparently everyone in Davos loves it.
This is what happens when one allows oneself to hide in "safe spaces" (like HN) where there's a "no politics" rule enabling people to hide and avoid being confronted with the ramifications of their actions.
The entire world runs on technology now. It's all inherently political.
This exactly hits in on the head. You're trying create a forum absent of politics. In fact, you're just enabling one political view over another. This hides social issues and in the end comes back to undermine your pure "technical view". It's not apolitical, it's disassociation from reality.
Exactly. Declaring that there must be no discussion when confronted with situations in which one party is doing harm to others, is an implicit endorsement of the harms being perpetuated.
Thank you all in this thread! I couldn't have put it better. I cannot stand "no politics rules". Politics divides and it is personal. But it shouldn't be either of those. We should be attacking policy and not people. No politics rules just deny reality because software doesn't exist in a vacuum without policy and money. Heck most people want to use software to get money which is a product of policy.
HN isn't even absent of politics, just the front page is really.
Everything we do is political. When we are making software and publishing it, whether or a company or ourselves, for sale or for free, there are political implications to those actions.
I'm going to defend the HN "no politics" rule here.
The reason "no politics" zones exist is because there are enough people going out of their way to shout at everybody, everywhere, in every corner of the internet and enough people are tired of it that they flock to...no politics zones. In real life, a person like that confronts you...you remove yourself from the situation, because that person who can't stop shouting at everybody comes across as nuts.
I think what op is getting at is that "no politics" rule is what allowed the frog to boil. So banning political discussion is political in and of itself.
I'd agree with your no politics preference if we were in a functioning society that wasn't actively spiralling towards fascism. I recognize that this line is blurry, and that's exactly the reason why no politics zones exist, there is always someone yelling about fascism. He might be a crazy guy on the corner who yells about everything.
I think the difference here is that there is a big critical mass of people who have recognized that the pillars on which our country sit are being actively sabotaged. It's not that everyone wants to be talking about politics all of a sudden, it's that the frog is finally boiling.
> I think what op is getting at is that "no politics" rule is what allowed the frog to boil.
But this simply isn't the case. The fact that "no politics" zones exist is a response to the fact that politics is everywhere else.
People here aren't blissfully unaware, they're just tired of it and many realize that arguing about it on the internet won't accomplish anything other than wasting time. As I sit here writing this, I'm thinking that I'm probably wasting my time.
We all have this idea in our head that if people are confronted with enough evidence, they'll change their minds. But that doesn't happen. People rationalize.
My goodness, people attack RFK Jr non-stop simply because he's part of the Trump administration and all he's done for his entire life is try to help the country be healthier. Every point he's made, every plan he's had and every policy he has advocated for have been totally logically sound. There's been nothing extreme in any of it. Every young parent I know is so relieved with what he's doing and frustrated that it took so long to do what seemed obvious.
But it's not that. It's inflammatory headline after inflammatory headline. It's putting words in his mouth, saying things he didn't say, making statements he didn't make, berating him in front of Congress for click bait video nonsense reading from a script.
It's exhausting. We're all tired of it. If you show me something that you think will convince me of something, I will look at it. And then I will look deeper. I will look to see if any information has been left out. I will look to see if editing has happened.
Because almost every time I invest the time to look into something, I find that it's exaggerated internet nonsense that only plays well in echo chambers. When you do that enough times, your skepticism meter goes to 11.
>We all have this idea in our head that if people are confronted with enough evidence, they'll change their minds. But that doesn't happen. People rationalize.
It's not about changing minds. It's about changing behaviours.
Right now, HN is a place where you can come to talk about the neat technical problems you solved while building software that does the digital equivalent of going to the corner store to buy Hitler a pack of cigarettes, while ignoring the fact that your work is harmful to society.
And nobody is allowed to talk about how maybe we shouldn't do the digital equivalent of going to the corner store and buying Hitler a pack of cigarettes, because it's not cUrIoUs CoNvErSaTiOn.
Are you ever going to actually circle back to the people actually providing you proof from earlier, or are you just going to pretend that you're a rational actor willing to change opinions?
There's a vast difference between tribal partisan politics and discussing policy as a system of governance (hacking society). I do my best to avoid the former and embrace the latter.
That said, there's a disappointingly significant number of HN members who hew to the latter and embrace the current regime. I consider this to be a forum of intellectual engagement, and that those people walk amongst us is quite distressing.
You can see in this threat that confronting people with the ramifications of their actions causes them to double down. They'll just come up with more and more justifications of why the victims deserve it. Same as every mass atrocity.
Yes, HN is my safe space. I have enough politics in my daily life, I don't need it when I'm with phone in my bed trying to wind down.
And which politics? American internal politics are foreign and distant to me. How much do you care about my country internal affairs? Probably not much. And it's OK, you can't fix every country in existence, and if you tried to care you would get insane.
While I completely agree in principle, these threads get very very heated so I can kinda see why HN/dang/our reptilian overlords are trying to keep them from becoming a majority of the site (which they easily could be, absent the flagging of these stories).
Also, I totally understand pruning back discussion that is political, and way off the topic of the actual post/story. People should reasonably be able to read and discuss a non-political story without big political discussion springing up.
Yeah, I don't know where you draw the line. Like, I personally have often gotten a lot of value from HN political threads, but they have been getting worse and worse since about 2016 (I wonder what happened then?) so I can see why other people might just be sick of dealing with the noise.
It's a privilege that many people working in tech have, who then create and populate forums where discussion of that privilege is considered political and therefore forbidden.
Thank you! Everytime you interact with government, it is politics. Filing taxes is politics. TurboTax lobbying against free self filing and government filing is politics and technology. It goes on and on. You cannot avoid politics because politics is about people.
But chatting with absolute strangers about random tech-adjacent topics is an inherently privileged activity. So let's just say the privilege needed to do that is large enough that it also gives you the privilege to not talk about politics.
"My children are starving. Militants have surrounded our village. But let me pop into HN for a bit and drop my hot take on the San Remo Pasta Measurer."
> This is what happens when one allows oneself to hide in "safe spaces" (like HN) where there's a "no politics" rule
HN does not have, and never has had (except for a very brief experiment that failed spectacularly and was very quickly aborted) a “no politics” rule, and, in fact, politics is usually all over the site.
I don't think you can really blame HN specifically here. It's much wider than that; pretty much the tech industry as a whole actively discourages any kind of philosophical reflection on technology, at least the kind that says you shouldn't build something, even if it's profitable.
There have been some insane politics (especially "culture war" stuff) that got laundered through the HN "reasonable discussion" filter, especially from 2021 through 2024. They still come up all the time. HN loves talking about politics when the commenters can get critical mass to grind the libertarian or "anti-woke" axe.
Not to mention every leader of YCombinator has had some kind of wild politics that come from having money that separates you from any kind of consequence.
Right now, there are people commenting on HN who built software enabling the wholesale violations of the rights of US citizens.
Right now, there are people commenting on HN who built the systems used at Facebook when they experimented with trying to create "symptoms of depression" in their users by manipulating the feed.
And so on and so forth.
But thank goodness we have dang to shield those people from criticism because ItS sO uNoRiGiNaL.
I don't see much moderation of criticism of meta and their employees behavior. Anti authoritarian politics has always been popular on HN. It's only the byzantine team color politics that is moderated.
I maybe get where you’re coming from, but what’s the solution to the issue you’re proposing? Screening everyone’s resume before allowing them to comment? What about people who work at companies that deal with Palantir at completely different departments (Microsoft and Xbox)? It’s obviously untenable
It is true that some users here spew vile ideology while hiding behind HN intellectual rhetoric. Then posts that understandably react strongly to that get flagged, and users get banned. I wish it was different, but I’ve made peace with that being a significant percent of the user base here.
A particular interaction I had comes to mind. A user here boldly and openly proclaimed he discriminated in interviews against people that look different from him, or that are neurodivergent. Actual illegal behaviour that will get you sued in many countries. I reacted strongly and my post got flagged and I received a comment from the moderation team.
I don’t envy the moderation team though, it’s a tough job.
> A particular interaction I had comes to mind. A user here boldly and openly proclaimed he discriminated in interviews against people that look different from him, or that are neurodivergent. Actual illegal behaviour that will get you sued in many countries. I reacted strongly and my post got flagged and I received a comment from the moderation team.
This is the "moderate discourse" problem, where you can express horrendous opinions as long as you are polite, and anyone who reacts emotionally gets criticized instead. You are required to engage these arguments in a detached, logical way as though they have equal intellectual merit, while they advocate for your suffering. This is also why places that enforce moderate discourse tend to become populated with polite fascists.
> And ppl were worried about China's 1984 style use of Ai, lol.
Came here to say the same...
> In the end it was greedy software developers that enable this.
Nope. First is a failing govt system (not upholding the constitution) that's enabling this.
Second it's not the devs but the business men (that are so much in bed in govt that they have become indistinguishable).
Look, there are software devs (and probably business men) that are equally greedy in, say, Finland/Iceland/etc. But it's not happening there: they simply have a govt that's better for the people at large.
GP didn't say greedy devs caused it, they (we?) are only enabling it.
Obviously there's always the cop out of "someone else would have done it anyway" but it doesn't really change the (un-)ethical side of your choices. I'm not saying it's black and white either - if the other choice is to leave your kids without proper medical care then it's a different thing than just being intentionally blind to ethics.
Great time to bring up the Imperial Boomerang[1]. My paraphrasing: the weapons and technology that imperial and colonial powers develop or use to control subjugated populations will inevitably be used to also control its own population.
A decent chunk of people on that list are working at the companies that are actively harming society. At what point does it become a joke? It's not like the millionaire devs working at big tech couldn't take a stand, but I guess their addiction to money is more preferential than sacrificing something to better society.
There's a clear difference in the premises behind the thinking of the "right" vs. the "left". One side sees "evil officers acting too aggressively towards fellow humans", and the other side sees "patriotic police catching criminal aliens, and leftists attacking the police".
> Approximately 4,000 NYPD officers took part in a protest that included blocking traffic on the Brooklyn Bridge and jumping over police barricades in an attempt to rush City Hall.
> The ACLU obtained a court order prohibiting strikers from carrying their service revolvers. Again, the SFPD ignored the court order. On August 20, a bomb detonated at the Mayor's home with a sign reading "Don't Threaten Us" left on his lawn.
> Among the hundreds of protesters arrested over the four days of demonstrations in New York City over the killing of George Floyd in Minneapolis, only one was highlighted by name by a police union known for its hostility toward Mayor Bill de Blasio. The name of that protester? Chiara de Blasio, the mayor’s daughter.
Some states also have a “state defense force” which is explicitly under the control of the state. But they tend to be pretty small I think, and lots of them are inactive or purely ceremonial.
I am all for criticizing and pointing fingers at trump and this entire administration.
But it does say they have been working with ICE for “years” in the article. What is not really clear to me is was the app made worse recently, was it originally commissioned under trump?
Nothing about that changes that they should not be working with ICE and they deserve any pressure they get to cut ties. But there is some history here I am very curious about.
All of that being said, I am concerned about how this will be turned around and used in more than just ICE and targeting everyone. Especially since we can be sure this will be used in largely blue big cities.
They've definitely using tools like this for a while. It's been true under all administrations, and it's always been a problem. Privacy advocates have been alerting on this for a while.
Physically attacking citizens takes it to another level.
It's one thing for tech companies to be complicit in eroding privacy, it's quite another to be complicit in overt fascism.
> “Enhanced Leads Identification & Targeting for Enforcement (ELITE) is a targeting tool designed to improve capabilities for identifying and prioritizing high-value targets
What constitutes this "high value"? & valuable to who, ICE agents with an itchy trigger finger?
Here's an example. One of my friends works for a manufacturing company. He attended a protest. The next day ICE called his employer and he was informed that if he attended another protest he would be fired. All this b/c he had a small company logo on his jacket.
The ability to en-mass record, lookup and intimidate citizens is unprecedented and while I have no hard proof that this is due to Palantir, it sure smells like it
My understanding (and I couldn't get past the app paywall)
Is that Palantir is joining databases from many different federal and state agencies, including passport and driver license photos. The app then allows you to scan a phase and it finds a match. It returns information on the person found, including citizenship.
The existence of this technology means that ICE can grab anyone they want, scan their face, and instantly have (or not have) probable cause to arrest them. Without the app, there would be hours before probably cause could be established which makes justifying the detainment legally much harder. I.e without the app, ICE has to actually build a case or see something suspicious for each target. With the app, ICE can just mass sweep people.
Which should be illegal, but thanks to the shadow docket order on Noem v. Vasquez Perdomo, is happening anyway.
Well the idea is that you grab brown people en masse and then scan them with the app. In fact the entire point of the app is to enable grabbing brown people en masse, so it's probably looking pretty good to Noem and the like.
Per the WSJ, as of January 10th this year, ICE has identified 13 instances of agents firing at or into civilian vehicles, leaving eight people shot with two confirmed dead. Five of those shot were citizens. According to court records, only one of these civilians was armed and never drew his weapon.
There is a sickness curdling in the dark corners of Silicon Valley. These people need to be humiliated for being the sniveling, authoritarian toads that they are.
There are reports that ICE threw a flash bang into a vehicle last night that contained a father trying to leave with his children to get them to safety.
The govt contract with them should be voided. That's the way.
But in the US no one believes they can meaningfully influence govt for real issues. And they are right.
Sure you can get them to paint a rainbow zebra crossing. /s
But not stop/prevent a (civil) war. Democracy dies and lobbyism (what we call corruption in "modern western democracies" -- because we dont do corruption, that's for poor countries!) takes over when the power is consolidated at a high enough level.
In the meantime, between now and the elections, what is a good method for deterring tech people from working for ICE? They are administering an authoritarian state today.
Make no mistake, the immigration enforcement operations in Minnesota are only a training ground for how to undermine civil rights for us all. Everyone is ok targeting te immigrant populations because they are "illegal" or live in a gray area of legality. But eventually these same tools will be used against us.
> Everyone is ok targeting the immigrant populations
To echo another commentor, we're not. And even if we were, this is not how it should be done. Enforcing the laws is one thing, but we have to have due process. Without due process, we have no rights.
Due process for EVERY person in the legal territory regardless of who or what they are. Otherwise it's way to easy to say, "they're the other, and have no rights", and they are already using this line.
Which is absolutely unconstitutional. The constitution says the 4th amendment protects all people, not just citizens. It's been upheld many times by the supreme court. This administration is knowingly and willingly trampling the constitution. The midterm elections can't come soon enough. And in the meantime we all need to get in the streets. Anyone can manipulate social media. But you can't manipulate the narrative when there is an overwhelming number of brave people in the streets clearly and peacefully protesting.
Sorry, bad wording. I was using the "you all" in the same context as the parent's "collective we". Yes, there's tens of thousands out in the streets protesting, but also yes there's tens of millions who aren't.
Current ICE/Homeland Security actions are unambiguously illegal.
The problem is that without an independent congress the US system is able to descend into authoritarianism. The court has (reasonably) decided that on many broad issues regarding presidential actions and abuse of authority only congress (via impeachment and removal) is able to constrain the president.
The current congressional majority has, for now, decided to allow the president to do almost anything he wants, regardless of the law and constitution.
That they neutered themselves doesn't make them any less neutered.
I'm skeptical about their ability to reclaim it, too. Lots of them remember being terrified and running away Jan 6, even if many now pretend not to... and SCOTUS has been on a tear wiping out long-standing legislation Congress was quite clear about like the Voting Rights Act.
No. One old man and a bunch of malicious zealots at his side are introducing a tremendous amount of instability into the country and the world at large; just like they did with his first term, only now less inhibited.
Along the same lines, anyone who thinks this is just about immigration should ask themselves what all these tens of thousands of ICE agents are going to do when all the immigrants are finally deported.
Are they just going to go home and go back to their old jobs? Or do you think the Administration is going to find something else for them to do.
Deportations aren’t all that high. The raids are theater.
Thinking that they’re going to deport all the immigrants isn’t realistic or supported by the numbers. Immigration control is a constant ongoing operation in every country. This administration is just making a big show out of it for political points.
My point still stands. The country will obviously not be permanently swarming with ICE agents violently grabbing immigrants off the street. There is going to be mission creep. If this isn't obvious then I don't know what to else I can say to convince you. Immigration is clearly just a pretext to establishing a national police force.
Remember this thread when you hear for the first time that ICE agents are tasked with doing something that has nothing to do with immigration enforcement. Coming soon.
>Remember this thread when you hear for the first time that ICE agents are tasked with doing something that has nothing to do with immigration enforcement. Coming soon.
And when it doesn't, will you remember the wild accusations you made or off making others with no accountability?
Hitler's regime didn't start out making death camps for Jews. The initial plan was to deport them, with camps for holding and processing. That was unrealistic given the volume of people to process, which led to the detention and work camps converting to death camps.
Just saying, similar outcomes could occur here. It's happened before. Their goals being unrealistic doesn't mean they'll stop, and may be part of their justification for doing even worse things than they're already doing.
I don't think it is just political points. Illegal Mexican border crossings crashed on the run up to Trump taking presidency. Signaling you'll get captured and deported wherever you are, I'm sure if keeping a lot of people who would be illegal immigrants away.
If it is this tweet you are referring to, it's about _teaching_ hate, which is only a slight nuance and still a terrible point to make for a self-labeled "free speech absolutist"
> Teaching people to hate America fundamentally destroys patriotism and the desire to defend our country.
> Such teachings should be viewed as treason and those who do it imprisoned.
And a very difficult thing to define, and very clearly not the sort of thing that'd be enforced against, say, the current President no matter how clear the violation.
I have a hunch most people recognize this, but many are ok with it. I have hope (But not confidence) people will see this in the upcoming US elections and more broadly. This is transparent authoritarian behavior.
Edit: Challenge: If you downvoted the parent post here (It's currently grey), I would love to hear why you think this doesn't match the pattern. Are you living in the US? I in general am struggling to understand my fellow US citizens, given the history of our nation.
I would start with this, because it's a flat out lie
> Everyone is ok targeting te immigrant populations because they are "illegal" or live in a gray area of legality.
People have been complaining about the attack on immigrants for a good, long while. And the complaining has been getting louder, more frequent, and from more people with every day. When they kidnapped workers and suddenly the price of everything went up, there was a lot of "see?!? this is what we're talking about"
So no, "everyone" isn't ok with the targeting of immigrants.
They should have said "enough are ok" instead of "everyone is ok".
Unfortunately, there are still enough people who are fine with the Trump / Miller / Noem / Bovino approach to immigration enforcement, or they're not impacted personally enough to make them speak or act.
I hope the cartoon villain responses coming from the administration when they're challenged on any of this will get more people to stand up against it all.
I expect masked ICE agents to be deployed to polls in purple and blue states to "prevent non-citizens from voting" (i.e. to scare minorities away from polls)
"A pair of armed and masked men in tactical gear stood guard at ballot drop boxes in Mesa, Ariz., on Oct. 21 as people began early voting for the 2022 midterm elections."
They might be "off-duty" but this is during Biden's admin. They're immensely more emboldened now and local LE will absolutely not enforce any laws restricting this.
And I'd fully expect some fuckery via executive orders closer to the election, and SCOTUS to use the emergency docket to let them "temporarily" be enforced.
It is being restricted. My red state has gone from allowing mail-in ballots that were allowed if they were postmarked by election day, to requiring them to be in by election day. When the postmaster general is a Trump appointee, and the mail has slowed down over the last few years, it makes me wonder if this is deliberate.
>the immigration enforcement operations in Minnesota
If you think this is only immigration enforcement you haven't been paying attention. That was ostensibly what Trump campaigned on. That is not what is happening in Minnesota and other previously safe places. What is happening is a massive terror campaign against all US citizens who don't happen to be the right color. And increasing, against everyone.
Palestine was the training ground, now it is being deployed back at home. Turns out it is a small world and you shouldn't have selective empathy.
"First they came for the Communists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Communist
Then they came for the Socialists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Socialist
Then they came for the trade unionists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a trade unionist
Then they came for the Jews
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Jew
Then they came for me
And there was no one left
To speak out for me"
I remember hearing the "imagine if Stasi/Gestapo had the data Facebook and Twitter have on us" argument for years. Turns out they were right to be worried.
Why would you think they wouldn't be right? Even on paper, doesn't that sound like a bad thing?
the past 15 years of my life feels like a bus full of people yelling at the driver to not hit the wall he's speeding towards and he's just ignoring them saying "it will be fine." and here we are!
It's crazy that anybody who has read books could learn about the company "Palantir," know where the name comes from, and join it thinking it's anything other than evil.
The thing is, I know palantir engineers are well paid. Money warps people's brains. It's much easier enable evil if you can go back to a home you own in Silicon Valley.
I've lost count of people who have read Tolkien's work and never dug deeper than "cool fantasy story" level. I was no different when I read the Lord of the Rings as a teenager. Unlike C. S. Lewis, Tolkien does not shove his message down your throat.
We have technofascists trying to bring AI into the military and saying it's Star Trek. Star Trek! One of the most clearly socialist, "woke" tv series! Media literacy is not a conservative value while illiteracy and ignorance is.
No one ever joined palantir thinking they were a good person. You join palantir because you've done enough drugs to believe that "good" and "evil" don't exist and you've "evolved" beyond that. You know, sociopaths.
I remember in the 2010s when Silicon Valley was full of founders who genuinely wanted to use technology to make the world a better place, and now it's just fascists who want to use technology to kill brown people more efficiently
> Silicon Valley was full of founders who genuinely wanted to use technology to make the world a better place
No, it wasn't, it was full of people who said they wanted to use technology to make the world a better place because saying you would use technology to make the world a better place was viewed as the path to investment and success.
Now, as soon as feigned empathy is no longer required for $$$, the mask comes off. It was never about anything other than profit.
To be fair DOGE was the ultimate SV neo-libertarian power fantasy. Just get a bunch of hackers together, screw the rules, get root on the government and just start deleting shit. Doubly so after a "leftist" administration.
> He radically restructured operations, splitting the company into thirty, and later forty, different units that were to compete against each other. Instead of cooperating, as in a normal firm, divisions such as apparel, tools, appliances, human resources, IT and branding were now in essence to operate as autonomous businesses, each with their own president, board of directors, chief marketing officer and statement of profit or loss. An eye-popping 2013 series of interviews by Bloomberg Businessweek investigative journalist Mina Kimes with some forty former executives described Lampert’s Randian calculus: “If the company’s leaders were told to act selfishly, he argued, they would run their divisions in a rational manner, boosting overall performance.”
This take is so wrong it qualifies as delusional. The valley was all about money and nothing but money by any means by no later 1996 when the dotcom got under way. In 2001 I was at a company actively engaging in meetings with a certain three letter agency wanted us to build a secret project to tap oc192 cables at various service providers while talking about how the internet was bringing freedom and openness to society.
SV was always full of limp wristed callous nerds who hate those they consider to be beneath them. Back them they called themselves libertarians or ancaps or something along those lines, but fundamentally nothing has changed.
Every single engineer who works on this should be in prison for life. Nuremberg trials are coming. Be careful associating yourself with techno-fascists, history will not forget your git commits on evil technologies.
For an idea as to how this gets translated into the reality on the ground here in Minneapolis this is an article on what’s going on from the main newspaper in the state.
> In the past week alone, ICE boxed in a Woodbury real estate agent recording their movements from his car, slammed him to the ground and detained him at the Whipple Federal Building near Fort Snelling for 10 hours. A 51-year-old teacher patrolling the Nokomis East community told the Star Tribune she was run off the road into a snowbank by ICE for laying on her horn. Officers shattered the car window of a woman attempting to drive past a raid in south Minneapolis to get to a doctor’s appointment nearby, then carried her through the street. Feds pushed an unidentified motorist through a red light into a busy intersection, reportedly fired projectiles at a pedestrian walking “too slowly” in a crosswalk and shoved Minneapolis City Council President Elliott Payne while he was observing their actions from a public sidewalk.
You can read the full thing here: https://www.startribune.com/have-yall-not-learned-federal-ag...
If all those things happened in Spain where I live, I'm 99% we'd have actual riots on the streets, together with a lot of other unpleasant-but-needed civilian action, until things got better, like we've done in the past (sometimes maybe went slightly overboard with it, but better than nothing).
Why are Americans so passive? You're literally transitioning into straight up authoritarianism, yet where are the riots? How are you not fighting back with more than whistles and blocking them in cars? Is there more stuff actually happening on the ground, but there simply isn't any videos of it, or are people really this passive in the land of the free?
Are people inside the country not getting the same news we're getting on the outside? Are you not witnessing your government carrying out extra-judicial murders and then being protected by that same government? I'm really lost trying to understand how the average person (like you reading this) isn't out on the streets trying to defend what I thought your country was all about.
Americans have had 100 years of stable government and in the past political solutions have eventually been enacted. The Civil Rights bill was passed. Nixon pulled out of Vietnam. I think a lot of people are still expecting sanity to return. I hope they're right.
This is anecdotal, America is geographically quite large. For a lot of people, where these events are happening are more than a days drive away (10 hours or more), it's not happening "here".
A lot of people here _enjoy_ the authoritarianism, judging by the votes, the voter turnout, and the private discussions I've had with my neighbors. They believe this is good for the country and that there'll be more opportunities for their kids.
A lot of other people are holding out for the midterm elections, to see if the will of the majority shifts, because otherwise its risks open civil war. And maybe just a touch of American exceptionalism—this can't actually be happening here, it'll all blow over—and distrust in the story that the media is feeding them is accurate.
And some are just fatalistic, this isn't really a surprising turn of events. America has been creeping toward this for more than a few decades, since Regan at the very least.
I think it's something different than "Americans are passive" - rather, many of them/us perceive the context of what you're seeing very differently. I can share some of this perspective though I don't insist it's the only way to feel.
1. Americans on the ground are clearly feeling the effects of illegal immigration. As an example: a an African American janitor in our kids' school voted republican in 2024 for the first time in his life, because the park in his Brooklyn neighborhood has become a shanty town and he can't work out there. In that election we've seen nearly every demographic move more republican than before, and I think this is the key issue for them.
2. In that context, when ICE does something, even when we don't like it, people can understand it in the context of a larger problem they/we want solved. When you perceive "passivity" - it's because you come in from a perspective of not wanting the underlying problem solved which is fine, but it's different for people who like "what" is happening even if not "how" it's happening.
3. There are plenty of people protesting and violently rioting if that's what they feel like.
I don’t think data supports this. Polling has shown a lot of people who voted Republican in 2024 (Latinos especially) have snapped back again already, at least partially because of what ICE is doing.
ICE are terrorizing a city and its residents no matter what their immigration status is. Even someone who strongly wishes to curb illegal immigration should have a problem with that.
What people voted for 14 months ago and how ICE is being used are two different things. Polling shows a majority of Americans do not support how ICE is behaving and do not feel like it is making them safer. There are not plenty of people "violently rioting" at this point. Blowing whistles and yelling at federal agents isn't rioting. If you want to see what violent riots look like, see the Iranian footage.
> it's because you come in from a perspective of not wanting the underlying problem solved
Where is this assumption coming from? Of course I don't want people to break the laws of the country or immigrate illegally, I never argued for that either.
What I don't understand, if Obama managed to throw out more illegals than Trump did for the same duration of time, yet with a lot less chaos and bloodshed, and you truly want less illegal immigrants, should you favor a more peaceful and efficient process? Instead of a more violent and less efficient process?
Where is there plenty of people violently rioting?
We had nationwide riots for months back in 2020 over a police officer murdering a suspect, and that resulted in approximately zero actual political change. During the recent shutdown over the budget, we had one of the largest protests in the country’s history and massive shifts towards the opposition in elections followed by them immediately folding in exchange for essentially nothing.
The political class is very well insulated from the popular will in this country, and I fear we may be nearing the boiling point.
American life is so much more distributed than European life.
Population density and the gigantic geographic distance make these kinds of events feel "remote" even if they are happening in our same state.
It's a 17 hour drive from Atlanta, Georgia to Minneapolis for example.
On top of that, a lot of Americans are just barely surviving financially, so they are in full bunker mode just making rent.
It's a scary time to rebel.
> American life is so much more distributed than European life.
It isn't though, Google Maps estimate going West>East coast in the US to take 44 hours (pure driving without stops), and puts going from the South of Spain to the North of Sweden to take 50 hours, more or less the same.
Then Europe is a bunch of countries, most of them speaking different languages, with way more difference in culture than the states of the US. I'm not sure it matters though, it really isn't relevant, but probably the wrong thing to bring up regardless, when the reality looks the opposite than you seem to think.
FWIW, when the (last) civil war in Spain happened, you had volunteer civilians coming from Sweden (among other countries) to defend their ideals, even if it wasn't their fight, completely different culture and language. But if you care about something bigger than yourself, then you act.
"My country is large" isn't an excuse to not stand up against tyranny, not sure in what world it would be.
The whole "just barely surviving financially" sucks though, especially considering the poor labor movements and almost non-existing union support, and poor grassroot organization. It always felt weird and artificially suppressed, but without those thing, it certainly seems easier to take over an entire country. Hope others learned their lessons with this.
>South of Spain to the North of Sweden to take 50 hours, more or less the same.
That would be like driving from Key West to Prudhoe Bay which looks to be 91 hours.
Sorry the US is big spread out place, but I also agree it's not really an excuse for what's happening.
> Then Europe is a bunch of countries, most of them speaking different languages, with way more difference in culture than the states of the US. I'm not sure it matters though, it really isn't relevant, but probably the wrong thing to bring up regardless, when the reality looks the opposite than you seem to think.
There's certainly more cultural similarity across the US, but that doesn't mean there isn't a sense of emotional and geographic distance. Remember that the typical riot participant is not a political theorist who has some deep theory of how discharging their duty will enact change, just an average guy who's mad as hell about what's happening and not going to take it anymore.
They weren't comparing the entire US to all of Europe. They were comparing Minneapolis and Spain.
A broad answer: because America is more violent. The ICE officers are armed and absolutely will use their weapons if given half a chance to. Maybe I’m wrong but I don’t think any rioters in countries like Spain go to a protest with a bet real chance on their minds that they might die.
> Maybe I’m wrong but I don’t think any rioters in countries like Spain go to a protest with a bet real chance on their minds that they might die.
That's the thing, they do, and have in the past too. Some might even recall riots ~70 years ago that kind of spiraled out of control and led to a civil war.
Looking at what's happening in Iran as we speak might be a good idea as well, where they've had enough, know that there is a good chance of their regime literally executing them on the spot, yet they're brave enough to continue fighting, because they realize what's at stake, and have run out of other options.
> The ICE officers are armed and absolutely will use their weapons if given half a chance to
So this was the whole point with the 2nd amendment right, that when/if the government repress you in that way, you have weapons to fight back? Or am I misunderstanding what that part is/was about?
Americans are much more comfy than Iranians are though. As much as Americans might dislike what's going on, they're not fighting got their own survival.
Democracy, authoritarianism are all abstract and vague concepts
This....
But then I still hear people say that this is what the 2nd amendment is for... Meanwhile, to make sure they have the heavier weapons, law enforcement goes absolutely bananas on what they carry.
The second amendment was written in a time when a firearm was a musket.
Then it's useless and should be abroged.
This is chicken-or-the-egg reasoning. Maybe the reason such violent behavior is unthinkable by a hypothetical Spanish LEO is because past protest has been so strong?
My counter-hypothesis is that America has never really known authoritarianism, religious wars, etc., so Americans are, on average, more supportive of Authority.
Yeah, I think your last point is a good one and something to consider too. Large part of our perspectives are shaped by what we've experienced, and what our predecessors experienced, and if you don't have the experience of walking through mass-graves created by the government executing dissidents, you don't have a frame of reference for that being a possibility.
So, from my perspective, there were in fact a number of "religious wars", but the folks who lost all ended up on reservations or murdered and in mass graves. I mean 650K folks died in the mid 19th century in a single 5-year war. And that's not counting how we might code the Atlantic slave trade or the post-reconstruction violence, or labor violence into that history.
As a person who has been involved with an riot in a small town, I think that, in the deep unconscious of most folks in the US, is something structure:
"well, there wasn't violence in the 19th and early 20th and mid 20th and late 20thC century... well okay, there was violence but they put folks who were resisting into mass graves or incarceration and everyone was better off for it".
That is, consider that the obverse of your claim might be true:
the violence committed by the US has been so totalizing that it's victims have never even counted as victims and that holocaust so complete that it only exists in the subconscious of white US citizens.
I find that idea to be a very easy way to understand why white folks are so passive and pro-authority.
sure. but to me it seems like the there was this vain hope that somehow we could thread the needle. that if we would accept to unjustice and stick it out, that eventually the courts and electoral process would be robust enough. that escalation would just lead to where we've already gotten, where peaceful protestors are being killed for 'disrepect'. that somehow pointing out all the obvious falsehood and gaslighting would be enough to convince people that this was going sideways. this was always going to end in martial law, but our complacency is generational.
I'd say a couple of reasons:
- The American political system has been very successful in telling its people that the only acceptable way to show discontent and enact change is by voting on elections.
- Lots of people are okay with it because it can only happen to the "bad guys", and why would it ever happen to them since they're the "good guys"... right?
> The American political system has been very successful in telling its people that the only acceptable way to show discontent and enact change is by voting on elections.
Has it? Because I recall a bunch of people gathering in the wrong building on Jan 6
... yet still tens of millions of eligible voters don't even bother
the country is very low-density, there's no one obvious point to protest (there was Occupy Wall Street... and then the Seattle TAZ and .... that's it, oh and the Capitol January 6th)
the country has a lot of experience "managing" internal unpleasantry, see the time leading up to the civil war, and then the reconstruction, and then there was a lull as the innovation in racism led to legalized economic racism (the usual walking while black "crimes", vagrancy laws, etc), and then the civil rights era, with the riots, and since then police brutality is used as a substitute to training and funding
> Why are Americans so passive?
Because it’s cold? Here in Minnesota it’s 17F / -7C. Factoring in the wind chill it feels like 7F / -14C.
There are other reasons too of course (geography, lack of urban density, distrust of news, apathy, etc etc) but I think the weather is a definite factor right now.
Because I have a kid to take care of. A job I need to keep, and a way of life I'd like to maintain. Because it's not happening where I live (yet).
I care about people but I don't give a fuck about my country. It's just a place to live. If it gets too bad I'll move my family elsewhere.
Also, this whole checks and balances thing we learned about in school will surely kick in sometime soon...
> Because I have a kid to take care of. A job I need to keep, and a way of life I'd like to maintain.
Exactly, so why not go out on the streets and actually defend those things then? Currently your (presumed) inaction will cause those to be harmed, you're not "saving those" by saying and doing nothing, you're effectively giving them away if you don't actively protect them.
Are any of those things threatened and need defending?
Assuming OP isn’t an illegal alien or attempting to impede federal law enforcement, they’re fine.
Assuming his job isn’t reliant on employing or generating revenue from illegal aliens, also fine.
Way of life: America had immigration laws since 1875 - his great great grandparents probably lived under more onerous immigration regulation (Chinese Exclusion Act, etc) than modern Americans and immigrants live with. Also fine.
> Are any of those things threatened and need defending?
If you don't think authoritarianism or fascism actually has a way of harming those things, then no, I guess not.
I think for most people who had to learn about these things in school growing up, for like 7 years or something, together with grandparents who experienced these things for themselves, it's pretty clear what's happening, but without actually having that perspective, I could understand it feels like "What is everyone so upset about? Doesn't seem so bad".
Because actually defending those things requires violence and I shy away from that. Sitting on the sidelines and protesting doesn't do a damn thing. It just makes the maga people laugh harder. Case in point: our own president sharing an AI video of himself wearing a crown and dumping feces on protestors.
Fair, avoiding violence is usually not the way to go, so fair point.
Protesting does do something though, the very least showing other people a direction to go in, to at least show something. It's hard to argue it does nothing, because images and videos do end up on social media and the news, and you really need the rest of the population on your side, if you actually want to change stuff.
You know what actually doesn't do a damn thing? Not doing a damn thing. Literally anything is better than nothing, just showing support is better than nothing. Talking about it is better than nothing.
> You know what actually doesn't do a damn thing? Not doing a damn thing. Literally anything is better than nothing, just showing support is better than nothing. Talking about it is better than nothing.
That's fair. And I'm talking about it right now and everywhere else I can in safe ways.
As far as protesting goes, I agree with you. It is better than nothing. It does help show people they're not alone. But as I said mentioned, this isn't happening where I live. It would literally take me days to travel to Milwaukee or another hotbed. Some people are stronger than me and take time off and make other sacrifices to attend rallies, and I admire those people, but it's not feasible for me. Or I suppose a more truthful way of saying it is it's not worth it for me because of the sacrifices I'd have to make just for the chance of getting hurt or being added to a list.
If nothing else, thank you for sharing your honest perspective, I appreciate it :)
> Or I suppose a more truthful way of saying it is it's not worth it for me because of the sacrifices I'd have to make just for the chance of getting hurt or being added to a list.
It's really sad to hear that the chilling effect is working so effectively. I of course understand why you make the choice you make, that's not strange, but that they managed to turn your society into this is nothing but sad to hear.
The same reason you guys don't just deal with any of the big problems facing Spain that collective action would solve pretty quickly?
What physical government oppression have I missed now? I'm not trying to claim Spain is perfect, because it really isn't, especially considering "freedom of speech" (depending on your perspective of it) and some other things Americans might take for granted.
But I'd say that usually when there are large issues impacting large parts of the population, then you can be pretty sure that there will be country-wide protests against it, many times with smaller violent elements, because people here make their opinions and feelings known.
That is a very Russian way of solving the problem.
So you don't do anything because you have a job you need to keep and a kid to take care of, but you're perfectly okay with moving to a completely different country on short notice?
Yes because one of those can get my face smashed in by a baton. Moving is a far safer option for my family.
Call it selfish if you want (hell, I'd even agree with you) but my priority is my family and my life. This idea that I have to care about "my country" is patriotic BS pounded into us to make it more likely to join the army.
Just curious, do you have dual citizenship? If not, what's exactly your plan to acquire a legal resident status quickly, and where?
The US, for better or worse, isn't a cohesive country of people interested in a collective, but a smash and grab of economic gains sourced from those who are forced to live in it and cannot flee to developed countries. You come to it, or stay in it, to make more income you would in developed countries at the detriment of everyone else.
Whether you believe the economic human factory farm that is the US is worth saving or preserving will be a function of your lived experience and mental model. "What are you optimizing for?"
Calling the USA a "economic human factory farm" is the best thing I've heard all year.
Yeah we have some perks here. But they're not as rare as our propaganda would have us believe and we sure do pay for them in various ways.
Don’t forget half the population (within polling MOE) supports this, believing ICE/ removal operations are making America safer by enforcing our existing, long standing immigration laws.
Obstructing feds in those operations, rioting outside government buildings, and driving cars at uniformed officers aren’t going to net you a ton of sympathy with people supporting law enforcement actions.
That's not actually true. YouGov's poll shows only 34% of Americans believe ICE's operations are making America safer: https://today.yougov.com/politics/articles/53878-more-americ...
You should read James Baldwin. Or read up on the debates post revolutionary war in the United States about the French revolution.
The truth is the land of the free has always been quite conservative. Which frankly, is true of most societies. In many ways that's what a society is.
Worse still, ICE stomping people out in the street is what freedom means to a vast swath of Americans. The rest are scared and leaderless and let down by an opposition that betrays their trust at every turn.
And yes Europeans keep telling Americans how to protest, but really they are little better. "Far right" candidates are already projecting big wins in the UK today. To say nothing of the victories far right parties have already secured in Europe. Spain is more familiar with blatant facisim and totalitarianism than Americans are. So idk... imo Europeans really pat themselves on the back too much... what would you do?
Provoking a riot is of questionable value anyway when he won a pretty convincing national victory at the polls just a year ago... no one has any answers as far as I can see, only empty expressions of anger... protest harder means what? I think a better start would be a coherent, defensible list of demands than anyone from a governor to a street activist can convey intelligently. Then you can try to enforce it.
But ultimately you can't muster more force than the state. If that is your only suggestion then it's a fruitless one.
Yep, in all EU countries, this would lead to country wide protests with the usual result being the fall of the government and new elections. Seems like the US is missing this element of democracy.
The ICE agents encounter protesters acting within legal bounds often. These people stay behind lines, do not touch the ICE agents, do not block ICE vehicles, etc. These people do not get much attention from ICE.
The people encountering forceful actions from ICE are doing something more. They are driving cars at federal agents, using their cars as moveable roadblocks, throwing objects at federal agents, etc. I find it hard to believe that any law enforcement agents anywhere would tolerate these actions without similar response.
But I may be wrong. If you live someplace where cops will let you block their cars, or throw things at them, etc please do let us know. I’d be interested to see how that works.
We're not passive, they would shoot us in the head
Imo, there is too much of an individualistic culture here. Where I am people live for twenty years and barely even know their neighbors.
> Why are Americans so passive?
Decades of copaganda paired with police brutality. A fairly large portion of americans view anyone with a badge as "the good guy" by default.
But, I think people are also fearful about what happens after the riots start. Nobody is excited about Trump using a riot as an excuse to declare martial law and deploy the military everywhere. There's still some hope that cities and states will step up and do their job. These ICE agents can and should be prosecuted.
> Are people inside the country not getting the same news we're getting on the outside?
They aren't. And unfortunately a LOT of US media is sanewashing. We have dedicated channels like fox news which are basically framing everything as "violent protesters attacking the police for trying to arrest bad guys". But even centrist and slightly left mainstream media is bending over backwards to give excuses and "both sides" this. Doing things like using a lot of passive language or just not reporting on the raids all together. You basically need to be online or tuned in to alternative media to learn about this stuff.
There's also the very simple and real fact that fascists already have the power. People are scared. There's about 30% of the citizenship who could literally drive a car through a protest or open up fire who'd be completely protected by the state for those actions. Most of the people that'd do that are already employed by ICE.
We don't have the memory of the end of an authoritarian regime only fifty years in our past.
To be fair, Minneapolis is raising hell and has been for the last week. There have been many protests in other cities as well.
I would also say that Trump and his cronies would absolutely love if this boils over into a violent riot. That would give them permission to double down.
I keep hearing this idea that boiling over lets them double down, but at the same time, it is not acceptable to let them keep doing what they do. Once the government starts using physical violence against the people and openly violating constitutional law, there is no choice, but to push back.
But that pushback can look different. Personally, I think that needs to be a massive general strike across every major city.
The government is built around a monopoly on violence - that’s kind of the point.
Claiming that government using violence to enforce the law and function of the government is some redline seems a bit silly and incompatible with any approach to government outside anarchism.
> Personally, I think that needs to be a massive general strike across every major city.
Yes, this tends to be really effective, especially when you're fighting the upper-class, which is more or less what's happening here as far as I can tell.
Get all the cleaners, cooks, hotel workers and other "servants" to strike, pool up to fund a salary-light for them while they strike, and you'll see changes quickly as the upper-class can no longer enjoy their status.
Totally fine with general strikes, particularly for the business that are accommodating and providing logistical services for ICE. Very much opposed to shooting wars. We don't have the firepower or the political power (yet).
Americans aren't passive: we actively did this. The rioters are in the masks and uniforms. We went so far out of our way to arrive at this godforsaken idiot collapse.
Minneapolis mayor told protestors to remain peaceful. The Democrats always want to follow the rules even when the other side has abandoned them. To be fair to Mayor Frye though, Trump wants to provoke rioting to invoke the Insurrection Act, which he threatened to do today the Democratic officials don't fall in line. So there is that.
First they passed the naturalization act of 1790 And I did not speak out Because we’ve been regulating and enforcing the concept of citizenship for 230 years
Then they passed the immigration act of 1891 And I did not speak out Because a sovereign state needs control over its borders, immigration, and may want to exclude criminals or those with communicable diseases
Then President Obama deported over 3 million people And I did not speak out Because it wasn’t Trump doing it
Then President Trump rescinded Temporary Protective Status And I did not speak out Because I understood what the word temporary means
Americans aren't passive. 40% of the people are openly fascist and support this.
Just look at this site as a sample set.
spain isn’t a great example here. it has some of the most racist fans football has ever seen and yet there’s no action. only italy probably compares. if there was a government agency going after black and brown people (ie non-white) i wouldn’t bet on the spanish population to come to their rescue. lamine yamal, a young footballer of moroccan descent hasn’t been spared the vitriol of the spanish hooligans even though he was top 3 best player at the recent euro (where he helped spain to victory).
point being, given that ice is going after non-whites and is getting by, a spanish ice will get by too, with probably more ease.
Sad as it is, I think Spain only barely makes it into the top 10 on the UEFA racism ranking. Serbia, Hungary and Israel are probably the top contenders, with Albania and Poland completing the top 5.
> lamine yamal
Hah, funny you bring up the name of a neighbor :)
I'm not sure that's even in the same class of issues as what's happening in the US and frankly, a bit surprising to hear. Have you seen/been with ultras in the Nordics? Even been to derbies played in Copa Libertadores? Both of those I'd immediately rank as way more violent than what we see here in Spain.
I've read multiple comparisons between US groups like Patriot Front and the Proud Boys and hooliganism in terms of the culture and demographics. Similar backgrounds, similar attitudes, similar behaviors (get smashed, go start fights). It's just more overtly political here rather than being organized around a sports fandom.
A pervasive "Someone needs to do something!!!" attitude is why. Americans will forever wait for the school principal to come and get everyone into trouble
There is a lot of direct action happening right now in Minneapolis, with people keeping watch on every block. I agree this level of organizing should be happening nationwide.
Americans have wanted the border fixed for around a century.
How is thugging around Minneapolis fixing the border in any way?
Fixed like Putin is "fixing" his borders through immoral violence, murder, oppression, ...? (Trump's regime are mimicking it well.) Or do you mean something else?
Are you saying USA, in the majority, is still imperialist? Is still racist? Is still white supremacist?
I've seen the live footage from both civilians and ICE from the area, this is a very one-sided article and outlook. The reality on the ground is that people aren't respecting the federal LEO's and deserve this.
Is there video for any of that?
If there is proof of it would it change your mind about anything?
Proof is always better. I assume just about everything I hear about politics on the internet is exaggerated until I see evidence at this point.
Skepticism is fine! You should review the published video evidence that has appeared over the last week.
Serious question: have you tried looking?!
Yes but if shown proof would it change your mind about anything? Are you against federal law enforcement covering their faces, beating and detaining people illegally?
Tons
a few here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46634217
Yes
A member of Governor Walz’s staff is the publisher of that newspaper.
Steve Grove has been the CEO and Publisher of the Minnesota Star Tribune since April 2023. Prior to that, he served as Commissioner of the Minnesota Department of Employment and Economic Development (DEED)—a cabinet-level position—under Governor Walz from 2019 until early 2023. Walz appointed him to that role, and Grove's departure from state government was publicly congratulated by Walz when he transitioned to the newspaper.
> A member of Governor Walz’s staff
> Grove's departure from state government
Pick one!
If you work for Palantir and if you work on these systems: You have blood on your hands. You know that it's not right what is happening on the ground right now. Do something.
The particular problem here is the vast majority of people that are writing this software
1. Don't care, blood is great.
2. Think they are the good guys.
3. Are more worried about their next paycheck and having bad things happen to them related to not paying rent.
I don’t think it’s really this simple. Palantir is a major government contractor that enables it to be more tech savvy. It’s embedded through hundreds of teams / agencies. You can’t remain a credible partner if you play morality police on every workflow. Palantir has worked through multiple administrations of both parties and have to support whoever is in power to have a seat at the table.
Ultimately the question is just: would you prefer to have a competent or incompetent government?
Otherwise you can agree or disagree with government policies, but that shouldn’t be directed at tech vendors, it should be directed at politicians and people in government / at the voting booth.
> Ultimately the question is just: would you prefer to have a competent or incompetent government?
Is this a joke? Have you looked at the current administration?
Haha, true, although I meant competent from a tech perspective. The reason Palantir is even in the building is because the government is notoriously bad at technology.
Not surprised. At least 30% of the population voted for the current president. Should be some software developers among those?
> 3. Are more worried about their next paycheck and having bad things happen to them related to not paying rent.
i feel like a broken record: anyone with a resume good enough for Palantir would have no problem finding work for another company/public sector employer. but they stay.
They pay a lot
As would any other job that these devs could get. If you're working at Palantir, it very isn't likely because of of financial desperation.
Guess why
Another arm of the murder cult
In a thread last year a Palantir employee said most of them were either Indian, East Asians, or laid off and/or unemployable White males. Good luck guilt-tripping any of them.
Note: I'm not American, nor White/WASP, nor Asian.
"The most monstrous monster is the monster with noble feelings"
Yes, Palantir folks have self selected for the first two over and over - anyone working there for many years now is completely blacklisted from anything I touch, when someone advertises ex-Palantir folks in the job description I know I can safely avoid that company forever.
I would never allow one of them to be hired via any hiring process I have influence over.
The unfortunate converse is there are plenty of other software companies looking for that .gov money that would pick these less than scrupulous employees right up.
Same. I would never allow anyone who has Palantir on their resume to be hired in any company I have influence over. They are the brownshirts of the tech industry, worse even than the people poisoning children's minds at Meta.
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it!"
Getting a worker to understand that their work negatively affects innocent people is a big uphill battle.
That's not my experience from the time I worked for Google. The popular sentiment was actually "We now work for a company that dropped 'don't be evil' and that sucks". See Manu Cornet comics - they are a pretty good reflection of the sentiment I'm talking about, a random example https://goomics.net/387
And it's not like everyone just complained for moral posturing and then continued to wipe the tears of disgust with wads of cash. Many people who left also mentioned the ethics part as why they left.
Due to background, I know a lot of people who work at google, and while many of them will give lipservice to ethical concerns, none of them have made any changes at all because, and this is an exact quote, "the money is too good."
The vast majority are probably shamefully exploited h1b coolies who would be left to wallow in cow excrement back in their own countries were it not for anti-labor big business friendly policies loved by the liberals who imported them to do the dirty work non-STEM capable persons are too lazy or ignorant to do themselves. /s (sarcasm off) :)
I'd like to invite you to prove any three of your points.
It’s hard to prove without knowing the app devs, but for points 1 & maybe 2, we can look at whether Americans think the raids are justified.
28% of them think they are [0]. It wouldn’t be out of the realm of possibility that the devs would be part of that number
Edit: it looks like the poll it’s for the recent incident of the woman who was shot - my mistake. Then I would assume the number for the raids themselves is higher
[0]: https://x.com/YouGovAmerica/status/2010853750618063016
> JP Doherty did not want to sign the email. But he knew he didn’t have a choice. His son, Rhys, was scheduled to have strabismus surgery in January, correcting an eye issue that made it difficult for him to walk on his own. The procedure cost $10,000 out of pocket. Doherty discussed the decision with his wife, and while she wanted him to be able to quit, they both knew the kids needed his health insurance. [0]
Regarding Musk's "hardcore" ultimatum at Twitter.
[0]https://www.vanityfair.com/news/elon-musk-twitter-ultimatum
You don't think most people are motivated by their personal paychecks?
People need paychecks. Not everyone is going to get to build and lead their own businesses?
When we stop tying our health insurance to our employment, we'll see a drastic uptick in people starting their own businesses. Working at company Z because their health insurance is fully paid for by the employer vs working at company Y where it costs you 1,400 a month for HDHP but the salaries are the same shouldn't be a thing
At least that's my theory.
Then what, pray tell, is their motivation?
PLTR stock peaked at $200 last year and has been going back up so far this year. People are investing in CCP style tech and don't care.
A Palantir rep was supporting one of our exercises late last summer, and he said "Knowing what I know about how the military is going all-in on Maven....I recommend buying Palantir stock."
I picked up a few shares, but I haven't checked if Palantir's growth has been unique or part of a general military-industrial complex melt-up.
Man, back when I was doing Big Consulting (including gov't/defense) I had to affirmatively declare every year to Legal that I wasn't directing any investment purchases or doing anything that could be construed as improper use of nonpublic knowledge. And now Palantir reps just out here pushing insider trading tips like it's nothing, smdh.
Free blood money.
Nah, free blood money was when my General Dynamics shares went from $60->$120, then did a stock split and went from $60-> ~$100. I think that was in....2005? The Stryker (a GD product) was coming into service in Iraq, which drove my purchasing decision. I was an E-4 in Korea at the time and thought I was a defense stock-picking genius.
I had to pull out of US stocks/market completely last year after I felt dirty just having money in a country sliding into authoritarianism. Interesting where different people draw different lines :)
Palantir does not work in a vacuum - it requires other technology, platforms and systems to operate and succeed - many of which are designed and maintained by the users of Hacker News.
Take a look at Palantir's trust center: https://palantir.safebase.us
Schellman did their audit and compliance - do they have blood on their hands?
How about AWS, GCP, Azure cloud resources used by Palantir - are they stained, too?
Certainly you must be aware that there are not just binary values of morality in life. The obvious answer is yes they are stained, as we all are through our participation in various systems, but with vastly varying amounts.
Is the manufacturer of the bomb responsible for when Israel drops it on a family home in Gaza? Yes. Is it the same responsibility as the general who gave the order? No. Is it the same as the pilot who followed the order? No.
Does that make it useless to hold people accountable? Of course not.
Respectfully, this is cheap cope. The bomb maker didn't know when he made the bomb, maybe. Now he knows, as do all the people turning the gears on this meat grinder, including a bunch of people here.
If you value your comfy life over the well being of others and the future of not only the country, but without an ounce of hyperbole, the human race, then keep your head down. If you don't, fuckin DO SOMETHING.
You know all those times you've said or heard others say "well if I was in Germany in the 30's...." well, guess what, games fuckin real now. So act like the person you want to be.
>If you value your comfy life over the well being of others and the future of not only the country
For people who think borders are just lines, our country as geography doesn't even exist. It's just lines. For people who think that all people are the same, everywhere, and deserve to go where they please, our country as a people doesn't exist either.
So if that's your conception of a country, why should I care about it at all? It's just a random place I happened to be born, and its disloyalty to me outweighs any I might show it. I inherited a house jointly with the rest of you, and you keep letting squatters live here for free. Once they're here, you screech if anyone tries to evict them. If I complain about them punching holes in the drywall and shitting in the kitchen sink, you tell me I'm racist. Whatever else, you and I are incompatible, and I am out of options.
Palantir is built explicitly for surveillance, in a way the other companies you listed are not. There is no comparison here. It's like saying the City of Minneapolis is complicit because they maintain the roads ICE is driving on.
Not really. Palantir is data integration and analysis software that in some cases (like ICE) can be used for surveillance. There are also thousands of commercial clients who use Palantir for completely non surveillance workflows, as well as many other government teams who use Palantir for non surveillance things. This is all public information.
Except that the owners of AWS (Amazon) GCP (Google) and Azure (Microsoft) are all defense contractors for the Department of War.
All of them work directly / indirectly with ICE.
The ironworker making steel plates for tanks and ships has a hell of a lot less moral culpability than the engineer designing shells.
Yes, this is how market economy works. For every organization doing horrible things, literally everyone is a small number of payment-handshakes from it.
No, it doesn't mean that "mr gotcha"[1] argument is valid. You don't have to isolate yourself from society Kaczynski-style to either criticize society or to do something smaller (like choosing who you work for).
[1] https://thenib.com/mister-gotcha/
Sure, but in that case your rage should be directed at ICE / the federal government. Not a third party software vendor.
Palantir does a ton of customization and consulting for specific use cases. This isn't like Microsoft Excel being used to track uranium enrichment in Iran, it is a direct, explicit part of their business.
Even if you do nothing else of impact in your life, you can stop defending the bad guys.
So because they show people how to use their software they’re evil?
The rage should be dependent on the contribution. You mention a third party software vendor who produces tools that aren't even "dual-use" with respect to the abuse by ICE, they are specifically tailored. That's not the same as, say, providing electricity to them.
They are dual use. Palantir creates platforms (Foundry, Gotham) which are used by ICE but also thousands of other companies. Are you saying that just because ICE tailors these platforms to their workflows they’re not dual use? That feels akin to saying some super complicated excel workflow used by a company means excel is not dual use.
> If you work in technology, you are part of this force, whether you like it or not.
Disappointing to see you downvoted. I agree with this partially, but only because I think it applies more broadly.
I work in tech (although not in Big Tech/Mag 7/FAANG/whatever they're called now), and I feel quite acutely that anyone in the field is culpable in part for the enabling the absolutely massive dump that the capital-adjacent class is taking on the world to have their power play fantasies play out.
To the extent that I've started apologising on behalf of the field/profession to non-technical folks when they complain about yet another dark pattern/"growth hack" designed to steal their attention and money.
Yes, they all are. Profits and shareholders value trump anything else. So yes, they are accomplices in the destruction of American democracy.
You can’t minimize the damage Palantir is doing with simple whataboutism.
It is in fact the contrary: I am trying to maximize it by pointing out how big tech platforms makes it possible.
No you literally went the what about route.
The US gov (including ICE) uses all of Microsoft Office for coordination and planning: email, spreadsheets, powerpoint, document generation, etc. Would you say Microsoft employees have blood on their hands too? If not, what makes Microsoft different?
From the article for context:
> Palantir is working on a tool for Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) that populates a map with potential deportation targets, brings up a dossier on each person, and provides a “confidence score” on the person’s current address
So essentially, the relevant app here is custom built in order to help ICE raids.
That's substantially different from generic office tech where ICE happen to be one of millions of users.
You're going to have to explain to me why it's a bad thing or immoral for the government to be aware of where immigrants who legally need to be deported live.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motte-and-bailey_fallacy
That’s not an answer. Please explain why it’s a bad thing that Palantir had produced an application that shows ICE agents the probable addresses of people they’re supposed to deport along with information about them.
If the answer is “I don’t believe in immigration law and the government should not enforce it regardless of what people vote for”, that’s a completely acceptable answer.
Because these systems are not only used on illegal immigrants. To give you a very clear example: a US citizen was murdered without any due process a few days ago by ICE.
Because surveilling people -- PEOPLE, not citizens -- without probable cause is a violation of the US constitution?
It is a bad thing because it leads to innocent people being brutalized, it's a violation of the constitution, it's very clearly the primary tool of an increasingly authoritarian government?
I wasn't answering you. I was calling out the vicious sleight of hand where you reduce what ICE is doing to the innocently-sounding "immigrants who legally need to be deported".
Taking your argument in good faith: I think selling a tool with a narrow use case tailor-made for ICE is categorically different.
Considering that Microsoft is also providing services to the Israeli government with the explicit intent of storing and cataloging all of the phone calls made by Palestinian citizens so that they can be analyzed by AI for potential bombing targets...yes I would say Microsoft also has blood on their hands. I wouldn't be surprised to learn they have deep partnerships with Palantir for compute services.
The same difference between a kitchen knife and an AK 47
Office can be used for things that aren't objectively evil?
All things done with office must be evil by association.
(Except clippy, he's just a guy)
Maybe, but Office is evil itself.
All humans breathe air. Would you say air has blood on its hands too?
This isn't the interesting argument you think it is.
Yes, absolutely. These are criminal scum, on par with pedos. Just look at how they are helping a people getting wiped out from their own territory in the Middle East.
Whataboutism, much?
A guy I grew up with that works at Palantir.
Here's his thinking:
1. He's white and lives in a blue state. Doesn't affect him. Oh, and money. 2. The attention on Palantir and their customers makes his stock and options go up. He's happy, because money. 3. His GOP-worshipping parents get to brag to their GOP-worshipping friends that their son is helping God's Gift to Humanity - Donald Trump. And making bank while doing it. 4. He believes that Palantir is doing good work, and that's the end of it. He believes himself to be a genuinely good guy, so if he's doing something, it must be good.
In general, if you're working for Palantir, you're unlikely to find yourself in the right side of history. Whenever you hear of tech being used for questionable purposes, Palantir seems to have their fingers deep in the pie.
Palantir has been doing awful shit since it started, so you have to presume that anybody that works there is on board with it.
I assume if someone works for Palantir they're an unabashed Yarvinist and fine with it.
That's a pretty broad generalization, but OK I'll bite.
- I think Yarvin has a lot of good points. No one should be ashamed to admit the truth of a matter. I can't stand his voice, I think he has annoying mannerisms, but nonetheless the man has a point and I'm not ashamed (especially by unknown and strange online personas) to say so.
- Palantir is objectively a profitable job. I've learned a lot here and the people I work with are brilliant.
- I don't think I have "blood on my hands" and rather instead think that people who use that tactic are resorting to strange emotional manipulation in place of a salient argument.
Let's be honest, simply conjecturing that someone ascribes to a political view isn't discourse. It's a potshot. You're assuming that anyone who reads your comment and leans in your direction is going to agree and vote with you. This is literally the lowest and cheapest form of engagement. It's also the most self serving. It does nothing to advance the conversation or prove your point.
Most importantly, this is the exact type of behavior that is furthering political polarization and discouraging actual discourse.
Really shows the state of things right now tbh.
I'm vouching for this comment (even though I disagree with it) as it's important to hear dissenting views.
Can you describe at what point someone would “have blood on their hands” in your view?
The problem in my mind is that these systems are exclusively in service of dishonesty. ICE is clearly being used to further political ends. If it were actually trying to stem immigration it wouldn’t concentrate its officers in a state with one of the lowest rates of illegal immigrants.
Are you saying you agree with that cause or that you bear no responsibility?
It makes perfect sense to concentrate law enforcement in a state that is in defiance. Even if the absolute numbers are low, the state cannot back down from enforcing the law because some people are resisting. Otherwise you invite anyone to disregard any law they don’t like. The state won’t allow this and the only way to overcome this is either to change the law or toss out the government, and only one options is realistic. And btw I am against deportations of people who have committed no felonies unrelated to immigration.
I think most people involved in protests would not characterize the thing they are resisting as merely "law enforcement". What they are experiencing is an occupation by a politically weaponized paramilitary organization which is going door-to-door in their neighborhoods wearing masks, wielding ARs, yelling at people and brutalizing them. How do you think you would react if this was taking place in your community?
Can you elaborate on some of Yarvin's points you think are good?
https://x.com/ndrew_lawrence/status/1050391663552671744
Honest-to-God truthfully, reading Moldbug is what made me realize the speciousness of pure rightism and ushered my journey from a rightist-axiomatic "Libertarian" / ancap to a centrist-qualitative libertarian-without-labels that sees left and right thinking as both necessary parts of a complete whole. But YMMV of course!
Meh, I blame social media specifically and media generally for the state of our country. Why call out just Palantir. The US, maybe the world, would be better off if companies like Meta (and others) didn't exist....
Hopefully John Connor is one of them. Deeply embedded, slowly implanting backdoors and kill switches into the Skynet system they are building.
It looks like their CTO is an Indian or Pakistani: https://investors.palantir.com/governance/executive-manageme...
I wonder how he feels about what the administration is doing and how his own work is directly helping them. Surely he is aware of all of the supremacist rhetoric coming from the official Twitter accounts of various government agencies or Elon Musk or Stephen Miller. Surely he has seen the kind of racist abuse that Vivek Ramaswami endured on Twitter, which led to him recently quitting social media.
Doesn’t he see how all of this is going to come for people like himself next?
> Doesn’t he see how all of this is going to come for people like himself next?
People are often remarkably good at this.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Association_of_German_National...
Wouldn’t it be even more fair to say that the people who allowed or even encouraged illegal immigration have blood on their hands because they know what they were doing and how the government would have to respond under the law? If we are going to use the line of reasoning you suggest then this should easily be on the table also.
This rests on the assumption that the government has to respond with violence.
People like... Donald Trump, prominent employer of illegal labor for decades?
If you want to go after prominent employers of illegal labor (and others who profit from it) I shan't shed a tear. But that doesn't seem to be what's happening.
I suspect they are using it in this encounter, where someone just out for a walk is harassed by armed men…
https://www.reddit.com/r/Minneapolis/comments/1qbawlr/minnea...
The Palantro CEO, Alex Karp, is on the record that he approves of what the president is doing in regards to immigration enforcement and the striking of boats in international waters.
"The Palantir CEO is currently the 142nd richest man in the world, with an estimated net worth of $18.2 billion..."
https://www.realtor.com/news/celebrity-real-estate/alex-karp...
Terrorizing everyone indiscriminately is not immigration enforcement.
This type of behaviour from Palantir is old news: https://www.business-humanrights.org/es/%C3%BAltimas-noticia...
900 million in federal contracts this year will do that
And in 2016 he was a Clinton supporter and a self described progressive. Vance was also a never trumper by his own admission.
It’s quite clear to me that these elites are just grabbing power by any means necessary. It won’t end after Trump. He’s just providing the cover in the current moment.
When the transition to authoritarianism starts elites have a choice to make.
History show most will choose authoritarianism.
Larry Ellison wants constant surveillance so everyone will be 'on their best behavior'.
With a little asterisk on the word "everyone".
Some animals are more equal than others after all.
I'm not sure why the down votes, I'm not being glib.
Go read the work of historians who study this. The transitions in Russia, Hungary, etc are well documented. There is a pretty solid consensus understanding of the dynamics, the typical playbook, etc.
Why would he object to illegal acts by the US when they are so profitable.
We need to expect more from our business leaders.
They have more power than you. The only way to induce accountability is to reduce the power gap.
These people want lords who they can petition for charity
i don't think we can expect that. but we should demand, require and enforce it.
Palantir would be evil even if Karp was, like, woke or something.
I've been on the receiving end of federal enforcement (DOJ, high-profile "cybercrime"). When they want you, they don't need a confidence score. There is no quota—they take time to build a case. The existence of these tools tells you this isn't targeted enforcement, it's industrial-scale population processing dressed up in an algorithm.
I live in Minnesota. This is my backyard.
Worth reminding everyone in the EU and UK that this is not a 'them' problem.
Palantir is the main software vendor for Europol. Equally pretty much all the 1984 proposals for age or id online verification that are being massaged into existence (both in the UK and pushed by the European Commission) have their fingers all over them.
They sell pre-crime and opinion control to our democratic leaders and apparently everyone in Davos loves it.
And ppl were worried about China's 1984 style use of Ai, lol. In the end it was greedy software developers that enable this.
Some guy on X recently commented on how “dystopian” Flock’s nationwide surveillance is.
Response by Garry Tan (CEO of YC)[1]
“You're thinking Chinese surveillance
US-based surveillance helps victims and prevents more victims”
[1] https://x.com/garrytan/status/1963310592615485955
This is what happens when one allows oneself to hide in "safe spaces" (like HN) where there's a "no politics" rule enabling people to hide and avoid being confronted with the ramifications of their actions.
The entire world runs on technology now. It's all inherently political.
This exactly hits in on the head. You're trying create a forum absent of politics. In fact, you're just enabling one political view over another. This hides social issues and in the end comes back to undermine your pure "technical view". It's not apolitical, it's disassociation from reality.
Exactly. Declaring that there must be no discussion when confronted with situations in which one party is doing harm to others, is an implicit endorsement of the harms being perpetuated.
Thank you all in this thread! I couldn't have put it better. I cannot stand "no politics rules". Politics divides and it is personal. But it shouldn't be either of those. We should be attacking policy and not people. No politics rules just deny reality because software doesn't exist in a vacuum without policy and money. Heck most people want to use software to get money which is a product of policy.
HN isn't even absent of politics, just the front page is really.
Everything we do is political. When we are making software and publishing it, whether or a company or ourselves, for sale or for free, there are political implications to those actions.
I'm going to defend the HN "no politics" rule here.
The reason "no politics" zones exist is because there are enough people going out of their way to shout at everybody, everywhere, in every corner of the internet and enough people are tired of it that they flock to...no politics zones. In real life, a person like that confronts you...you remove yourself from the situation, because that person who can't stop shouting at everybody comes across as nuts.
Same, you wouldn't criticize a woodworking forum for not having politics.
I would, if people on that woodworking forum did critical work for DOGE, or Palantir, or Facebook, or Sam Altman.
I was going to remove myself from this conversation, but then I had to shout it out, so.
I think what op is getting at is that "no politics" rule is what allowed the frog to boil. So banning political discussion is political in and of itself.
I'd agree with your no politics preference if we were in a functioning society that wasn't actively spiralling towards fascism. I recognize that this line is blurry, and that's exactly the reason why no politics zones exist, there is always someone yelling about fascism. He might be a crazy guy on the corner who yells about everything.
I think the difference here is that there is a big critical mass of people who have recognized that the pillars on which our country sit are being actively sabotaged. It's not that everyone wants to be talking about politics all of a sudden, it's that the frog is finally boiling.
> I think what op is getting at is that "no politics" rule is what allowed the frog to boil.
But this simply isn't the case. The fact that "no politics" zones exist is a response to the fact that politics is everywhere else.
People here aren't blissfully unaware, they're just tired of it and many realize that arguing about it on the internet won't accomplish anything other than wasting time. As I sit here writing this, I'm thinking that I'm probably wasting my time.
We all have this idea in our head that if people are confronted with enough evidence, they'll change their minds. But that doesn't happen. People rationalize.
My goodness, people attack RFK Jr non-stop simply because he's part of the Trump administration and all he's done for his entire life is try to help the country be healthier. Every point he's made, every plan he's had and every policy he has advocated for have been totally logically sound. There's been nothing extreme in any of it. Every young parent I know is so relieved with what he's doing and frustrated that it took so long to do what seemed obvious.
But it's not that. It's inflammatory headline after inflammatory headline. It's putting words in his mouth, saying things he didn't say, making statements he didn't make, berating him in front of Congress for click bait video nonsense reading from a script.
It's exhausting. We're all tired of it. If you show me something that you think will convince me of something, I will look at it. And then I will look deeper. I will look to see if any information has been left out. I will look to see if editing has happened.
Because almost every time I invest the time to look into something, I find that it's exaggerated internet nonsense that only plays well in echo chambers. When you do that enough times, your skepticism meter goes to 11.
>We all have this idea in our head that if people are confronted with enough evidence, they'll change their minds. But that doesn't happen. People rationalize.
It's not about changing minds. It's about changing behaviours.
Right now, HN is a place where you can come to talk about the neat technical problems you solved while building software that does the digital equivalent of going to the corner store to buy Hitler a pack of cigarettes, while ignoring the fact that your work is harmful to society.
And nobody is allowed to talk about how maybe we shouldn't do the digital equivalent of going to the corner store and buying Hitler a pack of cigarettes, because it's not cUrIoUs CoNvErSaTiOn.
Are you ever going to actually circle back to the people actually providing you proof from earlier, or are you just going to pretend that you're a rational actor willing to change opinions?
There's a vast difference between tribal partisan politics and discussing policy as a system of governance (hacking society). I do my best to avoid the former and embrace the latter.
That said, there's a disappointingly significant number of HN members who hew to the latter and embrace the current regime. I consider this to be a forum of intellectual engagement, and that those people walk amongst us is quite distressing.
You can see in this threat that confronting people with the ramifications of their actions causes them to double down. They'll just come up with more and more justifications of why the victims deserve it. Same as every mass atrocity.
Yes, HN is my safe space. I have enough politics in my daily life, I don't need it when I'm with phone in my bed trying to wind down.
And which politics? American internal politics are foreign and distant to me. How much do you care about my country internal affairs? Probably not much. And it's OK, you can't fix every country in existence, and if you tried to care you would get insane.
Pro-tip: when you see a headline on the main page, you don't have to click on it. Just keep scrolling.
While I completely agree in principle, these threads get very very heated so I can kinda see why HN/dang/our reptilian overlords are trying to keep them from becoming a majority of the site (which they easily could be, absent the flagging of these stories).
Sure, within reason.
Also, I totally understand pruning back discussion that is political, and way off the topic of the actual post/story. People should reasonably be able to read and discuss a non-political story without big political discussion springing up.
Yeah, I don't know where you draw the line. Like, I personally have often gotten a lot of value from HN political threads, but they have been getting worse and worse since about 2016 (I wonder what happened then?) so I can see why other people might just be sick of dealing with the noise.
It’s no longer politics when they’re abducting and murdering your neighbors.
>"no politics"
No politics is a privilege that many do not have.
It's a privilege that many people working in tech have, who then create and populate forums where discussion of that privilege is considered political and therefore forbidden.
Thank you! Everytime you interact with government, it is politics. Filing taxes is politics. TurboTax lobbying against free self filing and government filing is politics and technology. It goes on and on. You cannot avoid politics because politics is about people.
Exactly my point
I didn't mean to counter your point, but to highlight it.
Ah okay, I misunderstood, my bad
But chatting with absolute strangers about random tech-adjacent topics is an inherently privileged activity. So let's just say the privilege needed to do that is large enough that it also gives you the privilege to not talk about politics.
"My children are starving. Militants have surrounded our village. But let me pop into HN for a bit and drop my hot take on the San Remo Pasta Measurer."
> This is what happens when one allows oneself to hide in "safe spaces" (like HN) where there's a "no politics" rule
HN does not have, and never has had (except for a very brief experiment that failed spectacularly and was very quickly aborted) a “no politics” rule, and, in fact, politics is usually all over the site.
I don't think you can really blame HN specifically here. It's much wider than that; pretty much the tech industry as a whole actively discourages any kind of philosophical reflection on technology, at least the kind that says you shouldn't build something, even if it's profitable.
That is a fair take. Everybody wants to say "it is just a tool" and get away with it
There’s a shockingly large amount of the population that doesn’t want politics period. And that’s how we got here.
Yup!
There have been some insane politics (especially "culture war" stuff) that got laundered through the HN "reasonable discussion" filter, especially from 2021 through 2024. They still come up all the time. HN loves talking about politics when the commenters can get critical mass to grind the libertarian or "anti-woke" axe.
Not to mention every leader of YCombinator has had some kind of wild politics that come from having money that separates you from any kind of consequence.
Accounts have literally been praising the Iran islamist government in the thread on that country's internet shutdown.
It all depends on if you have the right politics or not. (USA bad, West bad, EU bad, China good, Iran good, Commies good)
In reality HN's 'no politics' ends up meaning no unoriginal tribal politics. Which is actually refreshing.
Think about this:
Right now, there are people commenting on HN who built software enabling the wholesale violations of the rights of US citizens.
Right now, there are people commenting on HN who built the systems used at Facebook when they experimented with trying to create "symptoms of depression" in their users by manipulating the feed.
And so on and so forth.
But thank goodness we have dang to shield those people from criticism because ItS sO uNoRiGiNaL.
I don't see much moderation of criticism of meta and their employees behavior. Anti authoritarian politics has always been popular on HN. It's only the byzantine team color politics that is moderated.
I maybe get where you’re coming from, but what’s the solution to the issue you’re proposing? Screening everyone’s resume before allowing them to comment? What about people who work at companies that deal with Palantir at completely different departments (Microsoft and Xbox)? It’s obviously untenable
It is true that some users here spew vile ideology while hiding behind HN intellectual rhetoric. Then posts that understandably react strongly to that get flagged, and users get banned. I wish it was different, but I’ve made peace with that being a significant percent of the user base here.
A particular interaction I had comes to mind. A user here boldly and openly proclaimed he discriminated in interviews against people that look different from him, or that are neurodivergent. Actual illegal behaviour that will get you sued in many countries. I reacted strongly and my post got flagged and I received a comment from the moderation team.
I don’t envy the moderation team though, it’s a tough job.
> A particular interaction I had comes to mind. A user here boldly and openly proclaimed he discriminated in interviews against people that look different from him, or that are neurodivergent. Actual illegal behaviour that will get you sued in many countries. I reacted strongly and my post got flagged and I received a comment from the moderation team.
This is the "moderate discourse" problem, where you can express horrendous opinions as long as you are polite, and anyone who reacts emotionally gets criticized instead. You are required to engage these arguments in a detached, logical way as though they have equal intellectual merit, while they advocate for your suffering. This is also why places that enforce moderate discourse tend to become populated with polite fascists.
> I reacted strongly and my post got flagged and I received a comment from the moderation team.
Yes the moderators here are 100% part of the problem.
>I maybe get where you’re coming from, but what’s the solution to the issue you’re proposing?
Making those people into pariahs, through repeated public shaming, until they stop being wilfully blind to the harms they're perpetuating.
I am 100% serious.
To be clear, I was talking about screening where people work. That part is untenable. And I think large parts of the community would reject it.
> And ppl were worried about China's 1984 style use of Ai, lol.
Came here to say the same...
> In the end it was greedy software developers that enable this.
Nope. First is a failing govt system (not upholding the constitution) that's enabling this.
Second it's not the devs but the business men (that are so much in bed in govt that they have become indistinguishable).
Look, there are software devs (and probably business men) that are equally greedy in, say, Finland/Iceland/etc. But it's not happening there: they simply have a govt that's better for the people at large.
GP didn't say greedy devs caused it, they (we?) are only enabling it.
Obviously there's always the cop out of "someone else would have done it anyway" but it doesn't really change the (un-)ethical side of your choices. I'm not saying it's black and white either - if the other choice is to leave your kids without proper medical care then it's a different thing than just being intentionally blind to ethics.
Great time to bring up the Imperial Boomerang[1]. My paraphrasing: the weapons and technology that imperial and colonial powers develop or use to control subjugated populations will inevitably be used to also control its own population.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperial_boomerang
As always, I like to point out that someone here is probably very proud of their work on this.
And, if you criticize them for building these systems, they'll trot out the usual excuses:
- Well, I'm working on interesting technical problems at massive scale. Leave it to the business guys to figure out how to apply it--not my problem.
- Well, I just move protobufs from one middleware API to another. I don't even talk to the application guys.
- Well, I just write the code my boss tells me to write. I don't want to be fired!
These losers are everywhere on HN, 10+ replying to the top comment. No surprise considering who runs the site.
I keep thinking about https://neveragain.tech
3 people from Palantir on that list of signatories
A decent chunk of people on that list are working at the companies that are actively harming society. At what point does it become a joke? It's not like the millionaire devs working at big tech couldn't take a stand, but I guess their addiction to money is more preferential than sacrificing something to better society.
Law and order and bureaucracy is a seductive, all encompassing, crushing force.
https://archive.ph/9UPzF
There's a clear difference in the premises behind the thinking of the "right" vs. the "left". One side sees "evil officers acting too aggressively towards fellow humans", and the other side sees "patriotic police catching criminal aliens, and leftists attacking the police".
Those are the two ways of thinking I've noticed.
Blue cities should have local citizen backed militias under the control of the mayor.
How would that be different from current municipal police forces?
The "under the control of the mayor" bit.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrolmen%27s_Benevolent_Assoc...
> Approximately 4,000 NYPD officers took part in a protest that included blocking traffic on the Brooklyn Bridge and jumping over police barricades in an attempt to rush City Hall.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_San_Francisco_P...
> The ACLU obtained a court order prohibiting strikers from carrying their service revolvers. Again, the SFPD ignored the court order. On August 20, a bomb detonated at the Mayor's home with a sign reading "Don't Threaten Us" left on his lawn.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/01/nyregion/chiara-de-blasio...
> Among the hundreds of protesters arrested over the four days of demonstrations in New York City over the killing of George Floyd in Minneapolis, only one was highlighted by name by a police union known for its hostility toward Mayor Bill de Blasio. The name of that protester? Chiara de Blasio, the mayor’s daughter.
“Under control of the mayor” would be different from many current municipal police forces.
The national guard exists for this purpose (state level) but is mostly captured by federal interests.
Local PD's could in effect do something similar but have shown to back the authoritarian-aligned party.
Propaganda has aligned nearly every single level of law enforcement to authoritarianism. I can't see a scenario where this is undone.
Some states also have a “state defense force” which is explicitly under the control of the state. But they tend to be pretty small I think, and lots of them are inactive or purely ceremonial.
I think they have Antifa.
If you think there's any city in the US with antifa "under the control of the mayor", phew. I'm not sure what to say to that.
Are they under the direct control of the mayor? No. Are they tacitly encouraged and enabled? Yes.
I am all for criticizing and pointing fingers at trump and this entire administration.
But it does say they have been working with ICE for “years” in the article. What is not really clear to me is was the app made worse recently, was it originally commissioned under trump?
Nothing about that changes that they should not be working with ICE and they deserve any pressure they get to cut ties. But there is some history here I am very curious about.
All of that being said, I am concerned about how this will be turned around and used in more than just ICE and targeting everyone. Especially since we can be sure this will be used in largely blue big cities.
It was a boring database product in 2011. It expanded in scope over many years, and now has a much larger budget.
"That changed in the second Trump administration, with Palantir now working on ICE’s deportation efforts."
https://www.palantir.com/newsroom/press-releases/homeland-se...
"...Since 2011, Palantir has partnered with HSI"
They've definitely using tools like this for a while. It's been true under all administrations, and it's always been a problem. Privacy advocates have been alerting on this for a while.
Physically attacking citizens takes it to another level.
It's one thing for tech companies to be complicit in eroding privacy, it's quite another to be complicit in overt fascism.
"I am all for criticizing and pointing fingers at trump and this entire administration"
I don't believe you or you wouldn't have bothered to muddy the water in the face of repeated violence and dehumanization.
ICE is already targeting everyone.
> “Enhanced Leads Identification & Targeting for Enforcement (ELITE) is a targeting tool designed to improve capabilities for identifying and prioritizing high-value targets
What constitutes this "high value"? & valuable to who, ICE agents with an itchy trigger finger?
> What constitutes this "high value"?
It's pretty simple[1].
1: https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/family-guy-skin-color-chart
Can anyone explain a user flow for how a Palantir product enables ICE to go from app launch to ‘target arrested’?
Here's an example. One of my friends works for a manufacturing company. He attended a protest. The next day ICE called his employer and he was informed that if he attended another protest he would be fired. All this b/c he had a small company logo on his jacket.
The ability to en-mass record, lookup and intimidate citizens is unprecedented and while I have no hard proof that this is due to Palantir, it sure smells like it
My understanding (and I couldn't get past the app paywall)
Is that Palantir is joining databases from many different federal and state agencies, including passport and driver license photos. The app then allows you to scan a phase and it finds a match. It returns information on the person found, including citizenship.
The existence of this technology means that ICE can grab anyone they want, scan their face, and instantly have (or not have) probable cause to arrest them. Without the app, there would be hours before probably cause could be established which makes justifying the detainment legally much harder. I.e without the app, ICE has to actually build a case or see something suspicious for each target. With the app, ICE can just mass sweep people.
Which should be illegal, but thanks to the shadow docket order on Noem v. Vasquez Perdomo, is happening anyway.
> confidence score
Is this the new social credit?
Anyone who works for Palantir or this corrupt administration should be blacklisted from the industry
It's not really a good ad for their software as they appear to be grabbing brown skinned people at random.
Well the idea is that you grab brown people en masse and then scan them with the app. In fact the entire point of the app is to enable grabbing brown people en masse, so it's probably looking pretty good to Noem and the like.
Appears based on what? What percentage of detainees do you think are illegal vs legal residents?
This is extremely relevant for the current conversation. All this has happened before.
IBM and the holocaust
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_and_the_Holocaust
Per the WSJ, as of January 10th this year, ICE has identified 13 instances of agents firing at or into civilian vehicles, leaving eight people shot with two confirmed dead. Five of those shot were citizens. According to court records, only one of these civilians was armed and never drew his weapon.
There is a sickness curdling in the dark corners of Silicon Valley. These people need to be humiliated for being the sniveling, authoritarian toads that they are.
There are reports that ICE threw a flash bang into a vehicle last night that contained a father trying to leave with his children to get them to safety.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cbMO7u44LGM
"humiliating" folks might not be the proportional response when innocent people are dying
How else are we supposed to deter tech people from working for Palantir? What is a good polite method?
The govt contract with them should be voided. That's the way.
But in the US no one believes they can meaningfully influence govt for real issues. And they are right.
Sure you can get them to paint a rainbow zebra crossing. /s
But not stop/prevent a (civil) war. Democracy dies and lobbyism (what we call corruption in "modern western democracies" -- because we dont do corruption, that's for poor countries!) takes over when the power is consolidated at a high enough level.
In the meantime, between now and the elections, what is a good method for deterring tech people from working for ICE? They are administering an authoritarian state today.
people cannot yet be held accountable; this is an important first step, however.
Ah ok, we'll hold people accountable. Sweet!
Hopefully the number of people who die stays low until that happens, which always happens, at least.
Make no mistake, the immigration enforcement operations in Minnesota are only a training ground for how to undermine civil rights for us all. Everyone is ok targeting te immigrant populations because they are "illegal" or live in a gray area of legality. But eventually these same tools will be used against us.
> Everyone is ok targeting the immigrant populations
To echo another commentor, we're not. And even if we were, this is not how it should be done. Enforcing the laws is one thing, but we have to have due process. Without due process, we have no rights.
Due process for EVERY person in the legal territory regardless of who or what they are. Otherwise it's way to easy to say, "they're the other, and have no rights", and they are already using this line.
Which is absolutely unconstitutional. The constitution says the 4th amendment protects all people, not just citizens. It's been upheld many times by the supreme court. This administration is knowingly and willingly trampling the constitution. The midterm elections can't come soon enough. And in the meantime we all need to get in the streets. Anyone can manipulate social media. But you can't manipulate the narrative when there is an overwhelming number of brave people in the streets clearly and peacefully protesting.
> Everyone is ok targeting te immigrant populations
No, we're not.
I think the GP means the collective "we" is OK with it, evidenced simply by the fact that it is happening.
Yep, and from the outside, the rest of the world is watching you all just let it happen.
How can you watch the protest and organization in MN and conclude people are "just letting it happen". Quite the opposite.
Sorry, bad wording. I was using the "you all" in the same context as the parent's "collective we". Yes, there's tens of thousands out in the streets protesting, but also yes there's tens of millions who aren't.
A lot of the world would not tolerate the amount of illegals that the US has within its borders.
Then argue for democratically changing the law to make them unambiguously legal.
Selectively enforcing only the laws you want to is the key enabler of corruption.
> Selectively enforcing only the laws you want to is the key enabler of corruption.
Like expanding Presidential immunity specifically for a President with 34 existing felony convictions?
Or the admin refusing to even investigate the agent in the Good shooting (https://www.axios.com/2026/01/14/ice-trump-minneapolis-inves...) while going after her widow (https://www.nytimes.com/2026/01/13/us/prosecutors-doj-resign...)?
Current ICE/Homeland Security actions are unambiguously illegal.
The problem is that without an independent congress the US system is able to descend into authoritarianism. The court has (reasonably) decided that on many broad issues regarding presidential actions and abuse of authority only congress (via impeachment and removal) is able to constrain the president.
The current congressional majority has, for now, decided to allow the president to do almost anything he wants, regardless of the law and constitution.
> Selectively enforcing only the laws you want to is the key enabler of corruption.
That's what the OP is saying.
Congress has been neutered and there's been efforts to ensure that it stays that way.
Congress hasn't been neutered, they can reclaim their power at any time. Republicans in power simply refuse to act at all.
That they neutered themselves doesn't make them any less neutered.
I'm skeptical about their ability to reclaim it, too. Lots of them remember being terrified and running away Jan 6, even if many now pretend not to... and SCOTUS has been on a tear wiping out long-standing legislation Congress was quite clear about like the Voting Rights Act.
It’s the literal plot of Star Wars
It isn’t new though. The whole reason it is such a mess now is it was equally deliberately ignored for decades.
No. One old man and a bunch of malicious zealots at his side are introducing a tremendous amount of instability into the country and the world at large; just like they did with his first term, only now less inhibited.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_They_Came
Along the same lines, anyone who thinks this is just about immigration should ask themselves what all these tens of thousands of ICE agents are going to do when all the immigrants are finally deported.
Are they just going to go home and go back to their old jobs? Or do you think the Administration is going to find something else for them to do.
Deportations aren’t all that high. The raids are theater.
Thinking that they’re going to deport all the immigrants isn’t realistic or supported by the numbers. Immigration control is a constant ongoing operation in every country. This administration is just making a big show out of it for political points.
My point still stands. The country will obviously not be permanently swarming with ICE agents violently grabbing immigrants off the street. There is going to be mission creep. If this isn't obvious then I don't know what to else I can say to convince you. Immigration is clearly just a pretext to establishing a national police force.
Remember this thread when you hear for the first time that ICE agents are tasked with doing something that has nothing to do with immigration enforcement. Coming soon.
It looked like your jeans might be knock-offs. Customs violation. Time to flashbang your kids.
>Remember this thread when you hear for the first time that ICE agents are tasked with doing something that has nothing to do with immigration enforcement. Coming soon.
And when it doesn't, will you remember the wild accusations you made or off making others with no accountability?
Hitler's regime didn't start out making death camps for Jews. The initial plan was to deport them, with camps for holding and processing. That was unrealistic given the volume of people to process, which led to the detention and work camps converting to death camps.
This is relevant to mention because the number of people in ICE detention right now is spiking: https://tracreports.org/immigration/quickfacts/detention.htm...
Just saying, similar outcomes could occur here. It's happened before. Their goals being unrealistic doesn't mean they'll stop, and may be part of their justification for doing even worse things than they're already doing.
I don't think it is just political points. Illegal Mexican border crossings crashed on the run up to Trump taking presidency. Signaling you'll get captured and deported wherever you are, I'm sure if keeping a lot of people who would be illegal immigrants away.
They might "look for immigrants" near polling stations in November?
Would be very bad if "immigrants" (i.e. not wearing a fair face with a matching MAGA hat) could vote, amirite?
They could monitor the midterm elections /s
Musk tweeted yesterday that speaking hate against the country should be considered treason and lead to being locked-up.
It's not hard to shift "anti-American" speech to mean "anti-ICE", anti-current-administration, etc.
He should be allowed to say that.
But it should not be enforced, or the constitution became toilet paper. I think we are arriving at the latter.
Mr "free speech" Musk (/s)
If it is this tweet you are referring to, it's about _teaching_ hate, which is only a slight nuance and still a terrible point to make for a self-labeled "free speech absolutist"
> Teaching people to hate America fundamentally destroys patriotism and the desire to defend our country.
> Such teachings should be viewed as treason and those who do it imprisoned.
https://xcancel.com/elonmusk/status/2011519593492402617#m
> it's about _teaching_ hate
Which is free speech, unfortunately.
And a very difficult thing to define, and very clearly not the sort of thing that'd be enforced against, say, the current President no matter how clear the violation.
I have a hunch most people recognize this, but many are ok with it. I have hope (But not confidence) people will see this in the upcoming US elections and more broadly. This is transparent authoritarian behavior.
Edit: Challenge: If you downvoted the parent post here (It's currently grey), I would love to hear why you think this doesn't match the pattern. Are you living in the US? I in general am struggling to understand my fellow US citizens, given the history of our nation.
I would start with this, because it's a flat out lie
> Everyone is ok targeting te immigrant populations because they are "illegal" or live in a gray area of legality.
People have been complaining about the attack on immigrants for a good, long while. And the complaining has been getting louder, more frequent, and from more people with every day. When they kidnapped workers and suddenly the price of everything went up, there was a lot of "see?!? this is what we're talking about"
So no, "everyone" isn't ok with the targeting of immigrants.
They should have said "enough are ok" instead of "everyone is ok".
Unfortunately, there are still enough people who are fine with the Trump / Miller / Noem / Bovino approach to immigration enforcement, or they're not impacted personally enough to make them speak or act.
I hope the cartoon villain responses coming from the administration when they're challenged on any of this will get more people to stand up against it all.
I expect masked ICE agents to be deployed to polls in purple and blue states to "prevent non-citizens from voting" (i.e. to scare minorities away from polls)
Bet. Lets see if we can get this up on polymarket, bet on it.
You already lost your own bet.
"A pair of armed and masked men in tactical gear stood guard at ballot drop boxes in Mesa, Ariz., on Oct. 21 as people began early voting for the 2022 midterm elections."
They might be "off-duty" but this is during Biden's admin. They're immensely more emboldened now and local LE will absolutely not enforce any laws restricting this.
Source: https://www.cnbc.com/2022/11/06/election-officials-facing-ar...
So the goal post moved from ICE or Federal agents being stationed at polling stations to any individual at all?
> deployed to polls in purple and blue states to "prevent non-citizens from voting" (i.e. to scare minorities away from polls)
MOST states (purple, blue, red) have mail-in voting. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postal_voting_in_the_United_St...
They're working on that.
Challenging the rules: https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/supreme-court-revives-...
Changing the rules at USPS: https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/how-this-new-mail-rule-c...
And I'd fully expect some fuckery via executive orders closer to the election, and SCOTUS to use the emergency docket to let them "temporarily" be enforced.
Correct, which the administration is also trying to remove.
For now. The tyrant controls the post office.
They're targeting that too. e.g. recent change to postmark dates.
It is being restricted. My red state has gone from allowing mail-in ballots that were allowed if they were postmarked by election day, to requiring them to be in by election day. When the postmaster general is a Trump appointee, and the mail has slowed down over the last few years, it makes me wonder if this is deliberate.
>the immigration enforcement operations in Minnesota
If you think this is only immigration enforcement you haven't been paying attention. That was ostensibly what Trump campaigned on. That is not what is happening in Minnesota and other previously safe places. What is happening is a massive terror campaign against all US citizens who don't happen to be the right color. And increasing, against everyone.
Citation needed.
Palestine was the training ground, now it is being deployed back at home. Turns out it is a small world and you shouldn't have selective empathy.
"First they came for the Communists And I did not speak out Because I was not a Communist Then they came for the Socialists And I did not speak out Because I was not a Socialist Then they came for the trade unionists And I did not speak out Because I was not a trade unionist Then they came for the Jews And I did not speak out Because I was not a Jew Then they came for me And there was no one left To speak out for me"
I remember hearing the "imagine if Stasi/Gestapo had the data Facebook and Twitter have on us" argument for years. Turns out they were right to be worried.
Why would you think they wouldn't be right? Even on paper, doesn't that sound like a bad thing?
the past 15 years of my life feels like a bus full of people yelling at the driver to not hit the wall he's speeding towards and he's just ignoring them saying "it will be fine." and here we are!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_and_the_Holocaust
Mods are going to boot this off the front page.
Mostly flagging from individual pro-ICE HN accounts.
Wasn't there a meme called owl really?
I don't know how much people outside of MN know about what's going on, but it's fucking dire here. However bad you think it is, it's worse.
There are more Feds running around then state and local police
As bad as Chicago?
Here's a recent write-up by a local: https://wburdine.substack.com/p/letter-from-an-occupied-minn...
Much worse
It's crazy that anybody who has read books could learn about the company "Palantir," know where the name comes from, and join it thinking it's anything other than evil.
The thing is, I know palantir engineers are well paid. Money warps people's brains. It's much easier enable evil if you can go back to a home you own in Silicon Valley.
> know where the name comes from
This is a wild point to me, yeah.
The Palantir is literally a cautionary tale on the risks of thinking you can use the enemy's tools without being corrupted by it.
I've lost count of people who have read Tolkien's work and never dug deeper than "cool fantasy story" level. I was no different when I read the Lord of the Rings as a teenager. Unlike C. S. Lewis, Tolkien does not shove his message down your throat.
We have technofascists trying to bring AI into the military and saying it's Star Trek. Star Trek! One of the most clearly socialist, "woke" tv series! Media literacy is not a conservative value while illiteracy and ignorance is.
https://arstechnica.com/culture/2026/01/pentagons-arsenal-of...
I think they know exactly what they were doing with the naming. They were and are absolutely ok with the evil connotations and uses
No one ever joined palantir thinking they were a good person. You join palantir because you've done enough drugs to believe that "good" and "evil" don't exist and you've "evolved" beyond that. You know, sociopaths.
Silicon Valley started with hippies and will end with fascists.
I remember in the 2010s when Silicon Valley was full of founders who genuinely wanted to use technology to make the world a better place, and now it's just fascists who want to use technology to kill brown people more efficiently
> Silicon Valley was full of founders who genuinely wanted to use technology to make the world a better place
No, it wasn't, it was full of people who said they wanted to use technology to make the world a better place because saying you would use technology to make the world a better place was viewed as the path to investment and success.
Now, as soon as feigned empathy is no longer required for $$$, the mask comes off. It was never about anything other than profit.
Correct! The reason so many Silicon Valley types love Trump is they can finally stop pretending to care about people.
And yet their base ate up the claim that DOGE was about getting rid of waste, fraud and abuse.
To be fair DOGE was the ultimate SV neo-libertarian power fantasy. Just get a bunch of hackers together, screw the rules, get root on the government and just start deleting shit. Doubly so after a "leftist" administration.
Same thing happened to Sears.
https://www.versobooks.com/blogs/news/4385-failing-to-plan-h...
> He radically restructured operations, splitting the company into thirty, and later forty, different units that were to compete against each other. Instead of cooperating, as in a normal firm, divisions such as apparel, tools, appliances, human resources, IT and branding were now in essence to operate as autonomous businesses, each with their own president, board of directors, chief marketing officer and statement of profit or loss. An eye-popping 2013 series of interviews by Bloomberg Businessweek investigative journalist Mina Kimes with some forty former executives described Lampert’s Randian calculus: “If the company’s leaders were told to act selfishly, he argued, they would run their divisions in a rational manner, boosting overall performance.”
This take is so wrong it qualifies as delusional. The valley was all about money and nothing but money by any means by no later 1996 when the dotcom got under way. In 2001 I was at a company actively engaging in meetings with a certain three letter agency wanted us to build a secret project to tap oc192 cables at various service providers while talking about how the internet was bringing freedom and openness to society.
Tech has been a cesspool for thirty years.
SV was always full of limp wristed callous nerds who hate those they consider to be beneath them. Back them they called themselves libertarians or ancaps or something along those lines, but fundamentally nothing has changed.
Frick Trump and frick all the pieces of dump that vote red! I hope you and all your loved ones de a horrible deth. You are ruining the entire world!
Why am I being downvoted? Has HN been invaded by Trump's scum too?
Every single engineer who works on this should be in prison for life. Nuremberg trials are coming. Be careful associating yourself with techno-fascists, history will not forget your git commits on evil technologies.
Why is this allowed to reach the front page, but any technical talk relating to the slaughter of Iranians gets quietly removed?
It's possible that different people flag the discussions you're referring to. That said, it looks like there have been ~7 threads with over 100 points on Iran in the last week alone: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=pastWeek&page=0&prefix=tru...
If anything, it appears that Minnesota/Minneapolis are under-discussed relative to Iran, no?
Good question. But a lazy parsing of your comment might imply you want this post also flagged.